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Thread: Re: Bread prices redux

  1. #1
    Nad Guest

    Default Re: Bread prices redux

    Boron Elgar <[email protected]> wrote:
    > On Sat, 1 Oct 2011 23:45:35 +0000 (UTC), Nad


    >> My problem with bread making at home is that the long cold winters makes it
    >> difficult for the dough too rise. I also prefer the house temperature to be
    >> no more than 70F and dough rises poorly at that temp.


    > No it doesn't. Bread rises more slowly, but rise it does, and the
    > flavor that develops during that longer rise makes it better tasting,
    > too.
    >
    > Try putting your bread doughs into the refrigerator overnight and
    > bake them in the morning.


    I will try that this winter when life slows down a bit. But that means I
    must do a little meal planning in advanced.

    >> A bread machine has
    >> heating elements in for making dough for roll ands pizzas. I will make
    >> sourdough breads during the summer in which house temperature is ideal for
    >> sourdoughs. I also freeze the doughs for pizzas and for rolls.

    >
    > Summer kitchen temps are exactly what you do not want for sourdough.


    My summer temps average in the seventies. The starters just seems not to
    bubble up in the winter. The starters form really well in the summer. Using
    Peter Reinharts books as a guide. I have no wish in my old age to back to
    school, so I try and learn by reading books and asking questions on the
    net.

    > If you do like a warm, fast rise, though, put the dough into an oven
    > with the light on, or place it in a closed microwave with a container
    > of hot water.


    The light does not work well. What has worked in the past is turn on the
    oven for just two minutes and wait for an hour or two. I should say during
    winter, I keep the daytime home temp at 70F. I let the nighttime temp drop
    down to 58F. I bundle up at night, I sleep better with a warm body and a
    cool head. I believe the Night temps in the kitchen are to low for
    sourdoughs.

    At what temperatures are ideal to create the starters?

    > This ain't rocket science.


    From reading Shirley O Corriher books called CookWise and BakeWise, I am
    not so sure

    --
    Nad

  2. #2
    Boron Elgar Guest

    Default Re: Bread prices redux

    On Sun, 2 Oct 2011 01:34:00 +0000 (UTC), Nad
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >Boron Elgar <[email protected]> wrote:
    >> On Sat, 1 Oct 2011 23:45:35 +0000 (UTC), Nad

    >
    >>> My problem with bread making at home is that the long cold winters makes it
    >>> difficult for the dough too rise. I also prefer the house temperature to be
    >>> no more than 70F and dough rises poorly at that temp.

    >
    >> No it doesn't. Bread rises more slowly, but rise it does, and the
    >> flavor that develops during that longer rise makes it better tasting,
    >> too.
    >>
    >> Try putting your bread doughs into the refrigerator overnight and
    >> bake them in the morning.

    >
    >I will try that this winter when life slows down a bit. But that means I
    >must do a little meal planning in advanced.
    >
    >>> A bread machine has
    >>> heating elements in for making dough for roll ands pizzas. I will make
    >>> sourdough breads during the summer in which house temperature is ideal for
    >>> sourdoughs. I also freeze the doughs for pizzas and for rolls.

    >>
    >> Summer kitchen temps are exactly what you do not want for sourdough.

    >
    >My summer temps average in the seventies. The starters just seems not to
    >bubble up in the winter. The starters form really well in the summer. Using
    >Peter Reinharts books as a guide. I have no wish in my old age to back to
    >school, so I try and learn by reading books and asking questions on the
    >net.
    >
    >> If you do like a warm, fast rise, though, put the dough into an oven
    >> with the light on, or place it in a closed microwave with a container
    >> of hot water.

    >
    >The light does not work well. What has worked in the past is turn on the
    >oven for just two minutes and wait for an hour or two. I should say during
    >winter, I keep the daytime home temp at 70F. I let the nighttime temp drop
    >down to 58F. I bundle up at night, I sleep better with a warm body and a
    >cool head. I believe the Night temps in the kitchen are to low for
    >sourdoughs.
    >
    >At what temperatures are ideal to create the starters?


    Best way to begin a starter is to leave it out on the counter in
    moderate temps (65F-75F) for the first week or so.

    Most miserly way to create one is to use 2tbs of rye, & an equal
    amount of water. 12 hrs later, dump it, leaving the dregs in the
    container and refresh it with the 2-2. Continue this way for a week,
    then switch to refreshing once a day for 1 week. After that, it should
    be stable enough so that you can increase the refreshment amount to
    what you need for a test bake.

    Once the starter is well established, you can shift it to all white if
    you like, or break it into two starters, one of rye and one of white,
    and they toss 'em in the fridge. I refresh once a week, sometimes more
    often if I am baking a lot, sometimes less often if I am not, or if I
    am away.

    >> This ain't rocket science.

    >
    >From reading Shirley O Corriher books called CookWise and BakeWise, I am
    >not so sure


    No, honestly. Sourdough starters and bread baking are best handled
    simply, with no fuss, no bother. No pineapple juice, no grapes,
    nothing weird. Just flour and water...and patience for the starters,
    add some salt into the dough for baking and you're on your way.

    If you want seed starter, go to the link below, and benefit from the
    generosity of volunteers who will help you.

    http://carlsfriends.net/source.html


    I am sad that so many bread books these days only provide the One True
    Path to making bread and that each path involves learning the that
    particular baker's religion to get to a decent loaf. T'aint so...

    Boron

  3. #3
    Nad Guest

    Default Re: Bread prices redux

    Boron Elgar <[email protected]> wrote:

    > I am sad that so many bread books these days only provide the One True
    > Path to making bread and that each path involves learning the that
    > particular baker's religion to get to a decent loaf. T'aint so...
    >
    > Boron


    Sounds like your not fan of Peter Reinhart's Books on bread making. I use
    pineapple juice and feed the starter daily with more flower and so on. I am
    open to different methods. I have only one book specifically on bread
    making. Do you have any other authors that may be of interest?

    I saved your instructions for making a starter. Books are an addiction, I
    have around two thousand books. However, I tend to loose single sheet
    recipes over time, I am not that organized or disciplined.

    Thanks for the advice

    --
    Nad

  4. #4
    Boron Elgar Guest

    Default Re: Bread prices redux

    On Sun, 2 Oct 2011 13:08:18 +0000 (UTC), Nad
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >Boron Elgar <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >> I am sad that so many bread books these days only provide the One True
    >> Path to making bread and that each path involves learning the that
    >> particular baker's religion to get to a decent loaf. T'aint so...
    >>
    >> Boron

    >
    >Sounds like your not fan of Peter Reinhart's Books on bread making. I use
    >pineapple juice and feed the starter daily with more flower and so on. I am
    >open to different methods. I have only one book specifically on bread
    >making. Do you have any other authors that may be of interest?
    >
    >I saved your instructions for making a starter. Books are an addiction, I
    >have around two thousand books. However, I tend to loose single sheet
    >recipes over time, I am not that organized or disciplined.
    >
    >Thanks for the advice



    I have all of Reinhart's books, actually. I have all the classic,
    popular and recent bread books. I started collecting with Beard on
    Bread decades ago and have made it all the way to Tartine.

    It is reading all these books that I have learned that there are 90
    million ways to make good bread (and that cookbook editing is a lost
    art). No one method is perfect for all types of bread. In fact no one
    method is perfect for even one type of bread.

    Many bread methodologies spelled out in these books require all sorts
    of extra steps, temperature checks, insistence on one brand/type
    flour or yeast or specially filtered water or type of bowl or spoon or
    mixer or baking vessel.

    Meh.

    Pare it down, keep it simple (even for fancy breads). Use a preferment
    to deepen flavor, rather than relying on tons of yeast to poof up your
    dough quickly. Take your time. This doesn't mean spend a lot of time
    in dough prep, just take a few minutes to do that, then put the dough
    away (in a cool place) and let the miracle happen. That is what takes
    patience.

    Begin with simple breads - flour, water, alt, yeast or leavening. Damn
    cheap ingredients. Perfect a loaf, then change it into something else.

    Pray you have a decent oven. Invest in a good stone, or use unglazed
    tiles. Experiment with some whole grains and different flours. Learn
    to understand the dough by its touch and hydration (the lower the
    hydration, the finer the crumb, usually, the higher the hydration, the
    more "holey" the bread), learn to shape your loaves well so they do
    not explode in the oven, try adding some fats for fun, to affect the
    texture, then fly with the eagles.

    It takes time. Not everyone feels it is worth it. Some just do not
    want to bother with bread, being quite happy with what is available at
    stores. That is ok. Some folks roast their own coffee, smoke their own
    meats, make their own jams and jellies. Each of us has one or more
    aspects of food prep that are really appealing and that we want to
    master. Decide if you want to do that with bread. You may not want to
    bother. I find it relaxing and rewarding, but you may not.

    Lots of pix up here, though I have almost stopped posting new ones.
    Just look past the family photos and seek the breads. If you have
    specific questions about any of them, let me know. Just keep in mind
    that I usually do not use recipes, so am better talking technique than
    ingredient ratios.

    Boron

  5. #5
    Boron Elgar Guest

    Default Re: Bread prices redux

    On Sun, 02 Oct 2011 09:42:03 -0400, Boron Elgar
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >On Sun, 2 Oct 2011 13:08:18 +0000 (UTC), Nad
    ><[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >>Boron Elgar <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>


    >Lots of pix up here, though I have almost stopped posting new ones.
    >Just look past the family photos and seek the breads. If you have
    >specific questions about any of them, let me know. Just keep in mind
    >that I usually do not use recipes, so am better talking technique than
    >ingredient ratios.
    >
    >Boron


    It helps if I actually post the link...

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/25648800@N04/sets/

  6. #6
    zxcvbob Guest

    Default Re: Bread prices redux

    Nad wrote:
    > Boron Elgar <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >> I am sad that so many bread books these days only provide the One True
    >> Path to making bread and that each path involves learning the that
    >> particular baker's religion to get to a decent loaf. T'aint so...
    >>
    >> Boron

    >
    > Sounds like your not fan of Peter Reinhart's Books on bread making. I use
    > pineapple juice and feed the starter daily with more flower and so on. I am
    > open to different methods. I have only one book specifically on bread
    > making. Do you have any other authors that may be of interest?
    >
    > I saved your instructions for making a starter. Books are an addiction, I
    > have around two thousand books. However, I tend to loose single sheet
    > recipes over time, I am not that organized or disciplined.
    >
    > Thanks for the advice
    >



    I posted my recipe (such as it is) for sourdough bread recently in
    rec.food.sourdough. It's just flour, water, and salt (unless you count
    greasing the pan.) The starter is just flour and water. It's
    exceedingly easy; the only hard part is I can't predict how long the
    rise will take, so I have to work around that.

    It's a work-in-progress, but the results are good enough I'm not really
    motivated to change it much.

    -Bob

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