Thread: Smithfield and Proscuitto Ham??

In article <h8lt2s$8k9$[email protected]>,
"Theron" <[email protected]> wrote:

> Do any NG posters know why it's not advised, at least as far as I know, to
> eat a
> Smithfield or Country ham without cooking it? I don't see that it's any
> different than a dry cured "proscuitto" ham. I can't imagine these are any
> more organism free than proscuitto is. I don't know what the generic term
> for proscuitto is. Our butcher hangs curing Country Hams behind his butcher
> counter and sells them as home made "proscuitto". I don't think he's doing
> anything derelict. I think he's doing just what Volpi in Milwaukee does.
>
> RE: proscuitto: What's the taste difference between non nitrate raw ham, as
> is Proscuitto
> Parma, and nitrate containing, as in most other proscuitto type hams?
>
> RE: sliced country ham: How would you cook individual slices?
>
> RE: country ham: The two country hams I have tried to cook have more or less
> been disasters. They ended up too dry and the meat fell apart. How do you do
> it?
>
> TIA
>
> Ed

I eat Smithfield hams without cooking them ALL the time!
Hasn't killed me yet...
--
Peace! Om

"Human nature seems to be to control other people until they put their foot down."
--Steve Rothstein

[email protected]
Subscribe: [email protected]

Theron wrote:
>
> Do any NG posters know why it's not advised, at least as far as I know, to
> eat a
> Smithfield or Country ham without cooking it? I don't see that it's any
> different than a dry cured "proscuitto" ham. I can't imagine these are any
> more organism free than proscuitto is. I don't know what the generic term
> for proscuitto is. Our butcher hangs curing Country Hams behind his butcher
> counter and sells them as home made "proscuitto". I don't think he's doing
> anything derelict. I think he's doing just what Volpi in Milwaukee does.

Although the rate of trichina worm infection among pigs
is low, it isn't zero in typical pig operations. It is
zero in certified worm-free herds like those used to make
prosciutto.

Pigs are omnivores, and they will catch and kill rats.
This is how they can become infected. If a pig operation
has any possibilities of rats being present, there is a
possibility of trichina worm infection. Most pig farms
can't guarantee a rat-free environment.

Mark Thorson wrote:

> Theron wrote:
>
>>Do any NG posters know why it's not advised, at least as far as I know, to
>>eat a
>>Smithfield or Country ham without cooking it? I don't see that it's any
>>different than a dry cured "proscuitto" ham. I can't imagine these are any
>>more organism free than proscuitto is. I don't know what the generic term
>>for proscuitto is. Our butcher hangs curing Country Hams behind his butcher
>>counter and sells them as home made "proscuitto". I don't think he's doing
>>anything derelict. I think he's doing just what Volpi in Milwaukee does.
>
>
> Although the rate of trichina worm infection among pigs
> is low, it isn't zero in typical pig operations. It is
> zero in certified worm-free herds like those used to make
> prosciutto.
>
> Pigs are omnivores, and they will catch and kill rats.
> This is how they can become infected. If a pig operation
> has any possibilities of rats being present, there is a
> possibility of trichina worm infection. Most pig farms
> can't guarantee a rat-free environment.

Dude, trichinea isn't an issue. The trichinea infection
rate in country ham is zero. Period.

Doesn't matter if the meat was initially infected or not.
It won't be after the drying process.

The concern is more likely about mold.

Theron wrote:
>
> RE: sliced country ham: How would you cook individual slices?

I pan fry. But I have diced and used country ham as if it were
prosciutto so I have ignored the advice to cook it at times.

> RE: country ham: The two country hams I have tried to cook have more or less
> been disasters. They ended up too dry and the meat fell apart. How do you do
> it?

My try was also a disaster. It ended up moist but stinky.

Now I slice a country ham as soon as I buy it and use the
slices. One ham yields many slices and as much as I like
country ham every so often I don't like it regularly. A
week or most between slices and the ham lasts all year
pulling a slice at a time our of the freezer.

I've found Canadian "prosciutto" at Costco a couple of times.
I don't care that's it's theoretically a knock-off the stuff
is delicious. Once I put a whole one in the freezer then
thawed it and tried to cook it as a country ham. Equal
disaster. If I ever see it again at Costco I'll get one
and slice it then freeze the slices. That worked so well
I'm now doing it with US country hams.

RegForte wrote:
>
> Dude, trichinea isn't an issue. The trichinea infection
> rate in country ham is zero. Period.
>
> Doesn't matter if the meat was initially infected or not.
> It won't be after the drying process.
>
> The concern is more likely about mold.

Wrong. Drying is not effective in killing the
encysted parasite larvae in muscle tissue.

If drying were effective, then the outbreak
in Idaho in 1995 caused by eating cougar jerky
would never have occurred.

http://wonder.cdc.gov/wonder/prevgui...1/m0040621.asp

Mark Thorson wrote:

> RegForte wrote:
>
>>Dude, trichinea isn't an issue. The trichinea infection
>>rate in country ham is zero. Period.
>>
>>Doesn't matter if the meat was initially infected or not.
>>It won't be after the drying process.
>>
>>The concern is more likely about mold.
>
>
> Wrong. Drying is not effective in killing the
> encysted parasite larvae in muscle tissue.
>
> If drying were effective, then the outbreak
> in Idaho in 1995 caused by eating cougar jerky
> would never have occurred.
>
> http://wonder.cdc.gov/wonder/prevgui...1/m0040621.asp


The OP wasn't asking about what amateurs do in their backyard.
He's asking about commercial products. They impose quality
control and actually measure the critical parameters in the
product.

There's never been a single case of trichinosis involving
commercialy produced country ham.

Mark Thorson wrote:

> RegForte wrote:
>
>>Dude, trichinea isn't an issue. The trichinea infection
>>rate in country ham is zero. Period.
>>
>>Doesn't matter if the meat was initially infected or not.
>>It won't be after the drying process.
>>
>>The concern is more likely about mold.
>
>
> Wrong. Drying is not effective in killing the
> encysted parasite larvae in muscle tissue.
>
> If drying were effective, then the outbreak
> in Idaho in 1995 caused by eating cougar jerky
> would never have occurred.
>
> http://wonder.cdc.gov/wonder/prevgui...1/m0040621.asp

Egads. That's disgusting. How hungry do you have to be to eat dried cat?

RegForte wrote:
>
> Mark Thorson wrote:
>
> > RegForte wrote:
> >
> >>Dude, trichinea isn't an issue. The trichinea infection
> >>rate in country ham is zero. Period.
> >>
> >>Doesn't matter if the meat was initially infected or not.
> >>It won't be after the drying process.
> >>
> >>The concern is more likely about mold.
> >
> >
> > Wrong. Drying is not effective in killing the
> > encysted parasite larvae in muscle tissue.
> >
> > If drying were effective, then the outbreak
> > in Idaho in 1995 caused by eating cougar jerky
> > would never have occurred.
> >
> > http://wonder.cdc.gov/wonder/prevgui...1/m0040621.asp
>
> The OP wasn't asking about what amateurs do in their backyard.
> He's asking about commercial products. They impose quality
> control and actually measure the critical parameters in the
> product.

I only cited that to prove drying is not effective
in killing trichina larvae.

> There's never been a single case of trichinosis involving
> commercialy produced country ham.

I find that very difficult to believe. Can you cite
a reliable source for that?

Mark Thorson wrote:

> RegForte wrote:
>
>>
>>The OP wasn't asking about what amateurs do in their backyard.
>>He's asking about commercial products. They impose quality
>>control and actually measure the critical parameters in the
>>product.
>
>
> I only cited that to prove drying is not effective
> in killing trichina larvae.
>

All drying is not equal, just like all "low pH" thresholds
are not equal. It's a question of degree. Country ham is
air dried and cured for almost a year. The resulting water
activity level is well below 0.9.

>
>>There's never been a single case of trichinosis involving
>>commercialy produced country ham.
>
>
> I find that very difficult to believe. Can you cite
> a reliable source for that?

It doesn't work that way. They document cases that do
exist, not ones that don't

If you're really interested, do a search on MMWR. It
goes back years.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/

RegForte wrote:
>
> Mark Thorson wrote:
>
> > RegForte wrote:
> >
> >>There's never been a single case of trichinosis involving
> >>commercialy produced country ham.
> >
> > I find that very difficult to believe. Can you cite
> > a reliable source for that?
>
> It doesn't work that way. They document cases that do
> exist, not ones that don't
>
> If you're really interested, do a search on MMWR. It
> goes back years.
>
> http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/

In other words, your evidence for that statement
is exactly equivalent to the evidence for your statement
that drying would render even infected country ham safe,
is that right? In other words, no evidence at all.

When the extremely high incidence of trichina infection
in pork at the turn of the century is considered, your
assertion that nobody has ever gotten trichinosis from
a country ham seems implausible, if not ludicrous.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jungle

Mark Thorson wrote:
> RegForte wrote:
>
>>Mark Thorson wrote:
>>
>>
>>>RegForte wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>There's never been a single case of trichinosis involving
>>>>commercialy produced country ham.
>>>
>>>I find that very difficult to believe. Can you cite
>>>a reliable source for that?
>>
>>It doesn't work that way. They document cases that do
>>exist, not ones that don't
>>
>>If you're really interested, do a search on MMWR. It
>>goes back years.
>>
>>http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/
>
>
> In other words, your evidence for that statement
> is exactly equivalent to the evidence for your statement
> that drying would render even infected country ham safe,
> is that right? In other words, no evidence at all.
>

No, my assertion is based on years of reading, studying,
and producing cured pork products of all types.

You want evidence? Here's a portion of a recent study that
confirms exactly what I've been saying.

QUOTE:

Although no food borne illnesses have been directly related to country
hams there have been outbreaks in similar products such as dried sausages.

Title: Development of appropriate intervention methods to reduce the
occurrence of pathogenic bacteria on Country-cured hams -NPB # 01-143

Investigator: William Benjy Mikel
Institution: University of Kentucky
Date Received: 11/30/2002

<http://www.pork.org/PorkScience/Research/Documents/01-143-MIKEL-UofKY.pdf>


> When the extremely high incidence of trichina infection
> in pork at the turn of the century is considered, your
> assertion that nobody has ever gotten trichinosis from
> a country ham seems implausible, if not ludicrous.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jungle


A 100 year old book? I'm laughing.

RegForte wrote:
>
> Mark Thorson wrote:
> >
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jungle
>
> A 100 year old book? I'm laughing.

You did say "never", not "the last 10 years"
or something like that. That's why I find
your unsupported assertion implausible.

The idea that nobody ever got trichinosis
from a country ham is absurd. Infected pork
was common back then.

On Mon, 14 Sep 2009 13:36:45 -0500, Omelet <[email protected]>
wrote:

>I eat Smithfield hams without cooking them ALL the time!
>Hasn't killed me yet...
>--
Do you soak them first? They're awfully salty!

--
I love cooking with wine.
Sometimes I even put it in the food.

Mark Thorson wrote:

> RegForte wrote:
>
>>Mark Thorson wrote:
>>
>>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jungle
>>
>>A 100 year old book? I'm laughing.
>
>
> You did say "never", not "the last 10 years"
> or something like that. That's why I find
> your unsupported assertion implausible.
>


Seems to me it's implied, doncha think?

Cause, um, the OP never mentioned climbing into a time machine
to eat his dinner. Or did I miss that?

> The idea that nobody ever got trichinosis
> from a country ham is absurd. Infected pork
> was common back then.

You're right, it no doubt it happened a time or two back in
The Middle Ages. I should have addressed that. LOL

You crack me up. This is the closest you've ever come to actually
admitting you're wrong in your steady stream of food safety
fear mongering.

On Mon, 14 Sep 2009 12:21:27 -0700, Mark Thorson wrote:

> Theron wrote:
>>
>> Do any NG posters know why it's not advised, at least as far as I know, to
>> eat a
>> Smithfield or Country ham without cooking it? I don't see that it's any
>> different than a dry cured "proscuitto" ham. I can't imagine these are any
>> more organism free than proscuitto is. I don't know what the generic term
>> for proscuitto is. Our butcher hangs curing Country Hams behind his butcher
>> counter and sells them as home made "proscuitto". I don't think he's doing
>> anything derelict. I think he's doing just what Volpi in Milwaukee does.
>
> Although the rate of trichina worm infection among pigs
> is low, it isn't zero in typical pig operations. It is
> zero in certified worm-free herds like those used to make
> prosciutto.
>
> Pigs are omnivores, and they will catch and kill rats.
> This is how they can become infected. If a pig operation
> has any possibilities of rats being present, there is a
> possibility of trichina worm infection. Most pig farms
> can't guarantee a rat-free environment.

you are a million times more likely to be hit by lightning than you are to
get trichinosis from a domestic american pig.

besides, doesn't worrying about that take up valuable time that you could
be spending worrying about contracting mad cow disease?

your pal,
blake

On Mon, 14 Sep 2009 13:24:24 -0700, Mark Thorson wrote:

> RegForte wrote:
>>
>> Dude, trichinea isn't an issue. The trichinea infection
>> rate in country ham is zero. Period.
>>
>> Doesn't matter if the meat was initially infected or not.
>> It won't be after the drying process.
>>
>> The concern is more likely about mold.
>
> Wrong. Drying is not effective in killing the
> encysted parasite larvae in muscle tissue.
>
> If drying were effective, then the outbreak
> in Idaho in 1995 caused by eating cougar jerky
> would never have occurred.
>
> http://wonder.cdc.gov/wonder/prevgui...1/m0040621.asp

news flash! cougars aren't pigs!

blake

On Mon, 14 Sep 2009 19:49:57 -0700, Mark Thorson wrote:

> RegForte wrote:
>>
>> Mark Thorson wrote:
>>
>>> RegForte wrote:
>>>
>>>>There's never been a single case of trichinosis involving
>>>>commercialy produced country ham.
>>>
>>> I find that very difficult to believe. Can you cite
>>> a reliable source for that?
>>
>> It doesn't work that way. They document cases that do
>> exist, not ones that don't
>>
>> If you're really interested, do a search on MMWR. It
>> goes back years.
>>
>> http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/
>
> In other words, your evidence for that statement
> is exactly equivalent to the evidence for your statement
> that drying would render even infected country ham safe,
> is that right? In other words, no evidence at all.
>
> When the extremely high incidence of trichina infection
> in pork at the turn of the century is considered, your
> assertion that nobody has ever gotten trichinosis from
> a country ham seems implausible, if not ludicrous.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jungle

um, that was the turn of the *last* century, more than 100 years ago. do
you worry about cholera in your drinking water, too?

blake

In article <[email protected]>,
sf <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Mon, 14 Sep 2009 13:36:45 -0500, Omelet <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >I eat Smithfield hams without cooking them ALL the time!
> >Hasn't killed me yet...
> >--
> Do you soak them first? They're awfully salty!

Not to date. They are most often served mixed with other stuff. That
reduces the salt.

I have had them cut into steaks, but those are usually steamed. I guess
that more or less counts as "soaking"?
--
Peace! Om

"Human nature seems to be to control other people until they put their foot down."
--Steve Rothstein

[email protected]
Subscribe: [email protected]

RegForte wrote:
>
> Mark Thorson wrote:
>
> > You did say "never", not "the last 10 years"
> > or something like that. That's why I find
> > your unsupported assertion implausible.
> >
>
> Seems to me it's implied, doncha think?

If you had said "recently" or something like
that, it would have been implied. But saying
"never" is quite specific. It means "not ever".
>
> Cause, um, the OP never mentioned climbing into a time machine
> to eat his dinner. Or did I miss that?

When I was in college, pork still carried
a great enough risk that it was always
recommended to be fully cooked.

> > The idea that nobody ever got trichinosis
> > from a country ham is absurd. Infected pork
> > was common back then.
>
> You're right, it no doubt it happened a time or two back in
> The Middle Ages. I should have addressed that. LOL

It was happening in the U.S. frequently,
at least into the 1970's. It still happens
today in many foreign countries.

> You crack me up. This is the closest you've ever come to actually
> admitting you're wrong in your steady stream of food safety
> fear mongering.

It's still a real risk, but greatly reduced
because of progress in the pork industry.
I'll eat prosciutto raw, but not any other
pork product. The risk is small, but it's
not zero. Any conventionally raised pig could
catch and eat an infected rat. Meat from
infected pigs cannnot be made safe by drying,
smoking, freezing, etc. Only high-temperature
processing or irradiation can make pork safe
to eat if it is infected.