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Thread: Saturated fat for tamale dough

  1. #1
    Mark Thorson Guest

    Default Saturated fat for tamale dough

    I had been assuming that if I make a tamale dough,
    I'd have to use a saturated fat like lard or Crisco.
    I've eaten a few of the Trader Joe's tamales, and
    today I looked at the ingrediants to see what fat
    they used.

    I didn't see any fat listed. They do have
    carragenan, and I suppose that may be what holds
    the dough together.

    What exactly is the role of lard in a tamale dough?
    Does it help hold the dough together? Is it for
    texture?

  2. #2
    Serene Vannoy Guest

    Default Re: Saturated fat for tamale dough

    Mark Thorson wrote:
    > I had been assuming that if I make a tamale dough,
    > I'd have to use a saturated fat like lard or Crisco.
    > I've eaten a few of the Trader Joe's tamales, and
    > today I looked at the ingrediants to see what fat
    > they used.
    >
    > I didn't see any fat listed. They do have
    > carragenan, and I suppose that may be what holds
    > the dough together.
    >
    > What exactly is the role of lard in a tamale dough?
    > Does it help hold the dough together? Is it for
    > texture?


    It's for richness and texture, yes. It can be left out, but I don't like
    the result. I'd use oil, if saturated fat is an issue.

    (Masa, like polenta, firms up just fine on its own. It doesn't need help
    from lard.)

    Serene

    --
    "I tend to come down on the side of autonomy. Once people are grown up,
    I believe they have the right to go to hell in the handbasket of their
    choosing." -- Pat Kight, on alt.polyamory

  3. #3
    piedmont Guest

    Default Re: Saturated fat for tamale dough

    On Sat, 22 May 2010 09:50:14 -0700, Mark Thorson wrote:

    > I had been assuming that if I make a tamale dough, I'd have to use a
    > saturated fat like lard or Crisco. I've eaten a few of the Trader Joe's

    snip

    Mark,
    IMHO there is a big difference between crisco and lard. supposedly crisco
    which is hydrolyzed packs on 4 time the fat as an equal amount of lard.
    If you can find non-hydrolyzed lard use that.



    --
    ´╗┐regards, piedmont ~ the practical bbq'r!

    http://sites.google.com/site/thepracticalbbqr/

  4. #4
    zxcvbob Guest

    Default Re: Saturated fat for tamale dough

    On 5/22/2010 12:10 PM, Serene Vannoy wrote:
    > Mark Thorson wrote:
    >> I had been assuming that if I make a tamale dough,
    >> I'd have to use a saturated fat like lard or Crisco.
    >> I've eaten a few of the Trader Joe's tamales, and
    >> today I looked at the ingrediants to see what fat
    >> they used.
    >>
    >> I didn't see any fat listed. They do have
    >> carragenan, and I suppose that may be what holds
    >> the dough together.
    >>
    >> What exactly is the role of lard in a tamale dough?
    >> Does it help hold the dough together? Is it for
    >> texture?

    >
    > It's for richness and texture, yes. It can be left out, but I don't like
    > the result. I'd use oil, if saturated fat is an issue.
    >
    > (Masa, like polenta, firms up just fine on its own. It doesn't need help
    > from lard.)
    >
    > Serene
    >



    A lot of the fat cooks out during steaming (the corn husk soaks it up)

    If you leave the fat out of the masa, you might want to use an
    extra-greasy filling, otherwise the tamales will probably taste dry.

    I'm trying to figure out a tamale filling to use now that DD has gone a
    little stricter towards vegetarianism. (she eats fish and shellfish,
    but not much. Eggs, meat, and dairy are OK) She used to eat chicken,
    and I made tamales with chicken filling and used goose fat in the masa.
    I think she might eat wild game if it was available but I'm not sure.

    Maybe black beans, onions, and portabello mushrooms? Or that nasty
    black corn fungus you buy in expensive little cans at the Mexican store?
    (a little of that probably goes a long way) Shark meat chili might be
    interesting...

    Bob

  5. #5
    Mark Thorson Guest

    Default Re: Saturated fat for tamale dough

    piedmont wrote:
    >
    > IMHO there is a big difference between crisco and lard. supposedly crisco
    > which is hydrolyzed packs on 4 time the fat as an equal amount of lard.
    > If you can find non-hydrolyzed lard use that.


    You mean non-hydrogenated. Hydrolyzed lard
    would be soap.

    I think the formula of Crisco changed a few
    years ago. I'll check again, but I think it's
    now trans-fat free.

  6. #6
    Mark Thorson Guest

    Default Re: Saturated fat for tamale dough

    zxcvbob wrote:
    >
    > I'm trying to figure out a tamale filling to use now that DD has gone a
    > little stricter towards vegetarianism. (she eats fish and shellfish,
    > but not much. Eggs, meat, and dairy are OK) She used to eat chicken,
    > and I made tamales with chicken filling and used goose fat in the masa.
    > I think she might eat wild game if it was available but I'm not sure.
    >
    > Maybe black beans, onions, and portabello mushrooms? Or that nasty
    > black corn fungus you buy in expensive little cans at the Mexican store?
    > (a little of that probably goes a long way) Shark meat chili might be
    > interesting...


    I've been thinking about a vegetarian tamale
    filling. Maybe that nacho cheese sauce that
    comes in a #10 can, some vegetarian refried beans,
    whole canned corn, whole black beans, and chopped
    onions. I haven't tried any of this yet, I'm
    just thinking about it.

  7. #7
    Sqwertz Guest

    Default Re: Saturated fat for tamale dough

    > Mark Thorson wrote:
    >> I had been assuming that if I make a tamale dough,
    >> I'd have to use a saturated fat like lard or Crisco.
    >> I've eaten a few of the Trader Joe's tamales, and
    >> today I looked at the ingrediants to see what fat
    >> they used.
    >>
    >> I didn't see any fat listed. They do have
    >> carragenan, and I suppose that may be what holds
    >> the dough together.
    >>
    >> What exactly is the role of lard in a tamale dough?
    >> Does it help hold the dough together? Is it for
    >> texture?


    (piggybacking)

    There is no such thing as a fat-free tamale. There must be a
    labeling or reading mistake.

    Fat makes the dough tasty and moist. I can't imagine a tamale
    without it.

    -sw

  8. #8
    Sqwertz Guest

    Default Re: Saturated fat for tamale dough

    On Sat, 22 May 2010 17:22:41 +0000 (UTC), piedmont wrote:

    > If you can find non-hydrolyzed lard use that.


    Hydrolyzed lard?

    You really are an idiot.

    I haven't even seen partially hydrogenated lard (Armour is not, for
    example), let alone hydrolyzed lard.

    You dog was very tasty, BTW.

    -sw

  9. #9
    Sqwertz Guest

    Default Re: Saturated fat for tamale dough

    On Sat, 22 May 2010 12:32:48 -0500, zxcvbob wrote:

    > A lot of the fat cooks out during steaming (the corn husk soaks it up)


    I don't agree with that at all. If corn husks soaks up oil, why
    aren't they using that in the Gulf instead of human and animal hair?
    they asking for contributions of hair?

    There's a fair amount of fat in tamale dough, and I've never any fat
    at the bottom of the steaming vessel. The fat stays in the masa, in
    my opinion.

    -sw

  10. #10
    Serene Vannoy Guest

    Default Re: Saturated fat for tamale dough

    Sqwertz wrote:
    > On Sat, 22 May 2010 12:32:48 -0500, zxcvbob wrote:
    >
    >> A lot of the fat cooks out during steaming (the corn husk soaks it up)

    >
    > I don't agree with that at all. If corn husks soaks up oil, why
    > aren't they using that in the Gulf instead of human and animal hair?
    > they asking for contributions of hair?
    >
    > There's a fair amount of fat in tamale dough, and I've never any fat
    > at the bottom of the steaming vessel. The fat stays in the masa, in
    > my opinion.


    Yep, I agree.

    Serene

    --
    "I tend to come down on the side of autonomy. Once people are grown up,
    I believe they have the right to go to hell in the handbasket of their
    choosing." -- Pat Kight, on alt.polyamory

  11. #11
    koko Guest

    Default Re: Saturated fat for tamale dough

    On Sat, 22 May 2010 12:32:48 -0500, zxcvbob <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    >On 5/22/2010 12:10 PM, Serene Vannoy wrote:
    >> Mark Thorson wrote:
    >>> I had been assuming that if I make a tamale dough,
    >>> I'd have to use a saturated fat like lard or Crisco.
    >>> I've eaten a few of the Trader Joe's tamales, and
    >>> today I looked at the ingrediants to see what fat
    >>> they used.
    >>>
    >>> I didn't see any fat listed. They do have
    >>> carragenan, and I suppose that may be what holds
    >>> the dough together.
    >>>
    >>> What exactly is the role of lard in a tamale dough?
    >>> Does it help hold the dough together? Is it for
    >>> texture?

    >>
    >> It's for richness and texture, yes. It can be left out, but I don't like
    >> the result. I'd use oil, if saturated fat is an issue.
    >>
    >> (Masa, like polenta, firms up just fine on its own. It doesn't need help
    >> from lard.)
    >>
    >> Serene
    >>

    >
    >
    >A lot of the fat cooks out during steaming (the corn husk soaks it up)
    >
    >If you leave the fat out of the masa, you might want to use an
    >extra-greasy filling, otherwise the tamales will probably taste dry.
    >
    >I'm trying to figure out a tamale filling to use now that DD has gone a
    >little stricter towards vegetarianism. (she eats fish and shellfish,
    >but not much. Eggs, meat, and dairy are OK) She used to eat chicken,
    >and I made tamales with chicken filling and used goose fat in the masa.
    > I think she might eat wild game if it was available but I'm not sure.
    >
    >Maybe black beans, onions, and portabello mushrooms? Or that nasty
    >black corn fungus you buy in expensive little cans at the Mexican store?
    > (a little of that probably goes a long way) Shark meat chili might be
    >interesting...
    >
    >Bob


    I also made some corn, green chili tamales <still sorting through the
    photos> The masa was made up using canned cream-style corn, milk,
    chicken broth and lard. I don't know how it would be without the lard
    but if I were to experiment with it, I would replace the 1/2 cup of
    lard the recipe calls for with more of the creamed corn.

    koko
    --

    There is no love more sincere than the love of food
    George Bernard Shaw

    www.kokoscornerblog.com
    updated 05/22/10

  12. #12
    Serene Vannoy Guest

    Default Re: Saturated fat for tamale dough

    piedmont wrote:
    > On Sat, 22 May 2010 09:50:14 -0700, Mark Thorson wrote:
    >
    >> I had been assuming that if I make a tamale dough, I'd have to use a
    >> saturated fat like lard or Crisco. I've eaten a few of the Trader Joe's

    > snip
    >
    > Mark,
    > IMHO there is a big difference between crisco and lard. supposedly crisco
    > which is hydrolyzed packs on 4 time the fat as an equal amount of lard.
    > If you can find non-hydrolyzed lard use that.


    You may mean hydrogenated. At any rate, there's no way it's got four
    times the fat. Four times the saturates, I'd buy, but saturated fat
    doesn't actually have more fat in it than non-saturated. 100% fat is
    100% fat.

    Serene

    --
    "I tend to come down on the side of autonomy. Once people are grown up,
    I believe they have the right to go to hell in the handbasket of their
    choosing." -- Pat Kight, on alt.polyamory

  13. #13
    zxcvbob Guest

    Default Re: Saturated fat for tamale dough

    On 5/22/2010 1:34 PM, koko wrote:
    > On Sat, 22 May 2010 12:32:48 -0500, zxcvbob<[email protected]>

    <snip>
    >> I'm trying to figure out a tamale filling to use now that DD has gone a
    >> little stricter towards vegetarianism. (she eats fish and shellfish,
    >> but not much. Eggs, meat, and dairy are OK) She used to eat chicken,
    >> and I made tamales with chicken filling and used goose fat in the masa.
    >> I think she might eat wild game if it was available but I'm not sure.
    >>
    >> Maybe black beans, onions, and portabello mushrooms? Or that nasty
    >> black corn fungus you buy in expensive little cans at the Mexican store?
    >> (a little of that probably goes a long way) Shark meat chili might be
    >> interesting...
    >>
    >> Bob

    >
    > I also made some corn, green chili tamales<still sorting through the
    > photos> The masa was made up using canned cream-style corn, milk,
    > chicken broth and lard. I don't know how it would be without the lard
    > but if I were to experiment with it, I would replace the 1/2 cup of
    > lard the recipe calls for with more of the creamed corn.
    >
    > koko



    I think coconut oil would be a better substitute. Maybe 1/3 cup of
    coconut oil instead of 1/2 cup of lard.

    Bob

  14. #14
    Mark Thorson Guest

    Default Re: Saturated fat for tamale dough

    zxcvbob wrote:
    >
    > I think coconut oil would be a better substitute. Maybe 1/3 cup of
    > coconut oil instead of 1/2 cup of lard.


    This would be a very unhealthful substitution.
    Coconut oil is the most saturated naturally
    occurring food fat. Coconut oil raises
    cholesterol more than beef fat!

    Am J Clin Nutr. 1985 Aug;42(2):190-7.
    Plasma lipid and lipoprotein response of humans
    to beef fat, coconut oil and safflower oil.
    Reiser R, Probstfield JL, Silvers A, Scott LW,
    Shorney ML, Wood RD, O'Brien BC, Gotto AM Jr,
    Insull W Jr.

    This study's purpose was to evaluate the fasting
    human plasma lipid and lipoprotein responses to
    dietary beef fat (BF) by comparison with coconut
    oil (CO) and safflower oil (SO), fats customarily
    classified as saturated and polyunsaturated.
    Nineteen free-living normolipidemic men aged
    25.6 +/- 3.5 yr consumed centrally-prepared
    lunches and dinners of common foods having 35%
    fat calories, 60% of which was the test fat.
    The test fats were isocalorically substituted,
    and each fed for five weeks in random sequences
    with intervening five weeks of habitual diets.
    Plasma total cholesterol (TC), high-density
    lipoprotein cholesterol (HDL-C), and low-density
    lipoprotein cholesterol (LDL-C) concentrations
    among individuals follows the same relative rank
    regardless of diet. Triglycerides (TG)
    concentrations among individuals also maintain
    their relative rank regardless of diet but in
    a different order from that of the cholesterols.
    Plasma TC, HDL-C, and LDL-C responses to BF were
    significantly lower and TG higher than to CO.
    As compared to SO, BF produced equivalent levels
    of TG, HDL-C, and LDL-C and marginally higher TC.
    Thus, the customary consideration of BF as
    "saturated" and grouping it with CO appears
    unwarranted.

  15. #15
    notbob Guest

    Default Re: Saturated fat for tamale dough

    On 2010-05-22, Mark Thorson <[email protected]> wrote:
    > I had been assuming.....


    You tend to do that, a lot.

    > that if I make a tamale dough,
    > I'd have to use a saturated fat like lard or Crisco.


    Only if you choose to. Crisco, like the "lard" (manteca) on the
    market shelf, is saturated because it's been hydrogenated. Bad mojo.
    Use fresh rendered pork lard. Much more healthy.

    http://www.pri.org/health/praise-the-lard1453.html

    nb

  16. #16
    Mark Thorson Guest

    Default Re: Saturated fat for tamale dough

    Mark Thorson wrote:
    >
    > piedmont wrote:
    > >
    > > IMHO there is a big difference between crisco and lard. supposedly crisco
    > > which is hydrolyzed packs on 4 time the fat as an equal amount of lard.
    > > If you can find non-hydrolyzed lard use that.

    >
    > You mean non-hydrogenated. Hydrolyzed lard
    > would be soap.
    >
    > I think the formula of Crisco changed a few
    > years ago. I'll check again, but I think it's
    > now trans-fat free.


    I just checked. Crisco indeed has a label claim
    of zero trans fats, but it does contain partially
    hydrogenated soybean oil so it must have some
    trans fats. It must be below the level that
    requires reporting. As I recall, its three fats,
    in order, are soybean oil, fully hydrogenated palm
    oil, and partially hydrogenated soybean oil.

    Trans fats are formed when oils are partially
    hydrogenated. Crisco gets their level of trans
    fats down by using a fully hydrogenated oil,
    which does not have trans fats. It's a more
    saturated fat than a partially hydrogenated fat,
    so it can displace some of the partially
    hydrogenated fat and allow some unmodified
    soybean oil to be used.

    Still, I have to wonder about using a fully
    hydrogenated fat. Neither lard, beef fat, nor
    coconut oil are fully hydrogenated.

  17. #17
    Sqwertz Guest

    Default Re: Saturated fat for tamale dough

    On Sat, 22 May 2010 12:08:39 -0700, Mark Thorson wrote:

    > zxcvbob wrote:
    >>
    >> I think coconut oil would be a better substitute. Maybe 1/3 cup of
    >> coconut oil instead of 1/2 cup of lard.

    >
    > This would be a very unhealthful substitution.
    > Coconut oil is the most saturated naturally
    > occurring food fat. Coconut oil raises
    > cholesterol more than beef fat!


    I can't believe it. The minute I trade Om for Throson in my
    killfile, Mark comes up and posts another one of these BS
    "scientific studies" which is why I killfile him in the first place.

    I won't argue his defective studies other than point out that
    half the world uses coconut and palm oils as their primary source of
    cooing oil. And they are not keeling over from saturated fat intake
    or high cholesterol.

    -sw

  18. #18
    Mark Thorson Guest

    Default Re: Saturated fat for tamale dough

    Sqwertz wrote:
    >
    > I won't argue his defective studies other than point out that
    > half the world uses coconut and palm oils as their primary source of
    > cooing oil. And they are not keeling over from saturated fat intake
    > or high cholesterol.


    Comparative studies do show higher rates of
    cardiovascular disease attributed to coconut
    and palm oil intake.

    Eur J Epidemiol. 2001;17(5):469-77.
    Differences in all-cause, cardiovascular and
    cancer mortality between Hong Kong and Singapore:
    role of nutrition.
    Zhang J, Kesteloot H.
    Department of Epidemiology, School of Public
    Health, Catholic University of Leuven, Belgium.

    BACKGROUND: The majority of inhabitants in Hong Kong
    and Singapore are ethnic Chinese, but all-cause and
    cardiovascular mortality rates in these two regions
    are markedly different. This study describes
    differences in the magnitude and trends in mortality
    and attempts to explain these differences.

    METHODS: Data of mortality rates in 1963-1965 and
    1993-1995 in the age class of 45-74 years, dietary
    habits and other factors were compared between
    Hong Kong and Singapore using Japan, Spain and the USA
    as reference countries. Mortality and food consumption
    data were obtained from WHO and FAO, respectively.

    RESULTS: Large differences in all-cause and cardiovascular
    mortality exist between Hong Kong and Singapore. The
    difference in total cancer mortality was less consistent
    and smaller. The most pronounced finding was that ischemic
    heart disease mortality in 1993-1995 was 2.98 and 3.14 times
    higher in Singapore than in Hong Kong in men and women,
    respectively. Of the five countries considered, Singapore
    has the highest all-cause mortality in both sexes in the
    period of 1960-1995. The ratio of animal to vegetal fat
    was higher in Singapore (2.24) than in Hong Kong (1.08).
    Singapore had higher serum concentrations of total
    cholesterol and low-density lipoprotein cholesterol
    than Hong Kong, but the opposite result was observed
    for high-density lipoprotein cholesterol.

    CONCLUSIONS: There are striking differences in all-cause
    and cardiovascular mortality between Hong Kong and
    Singapore. These differences can be most reasonably and
    plausibly explained by their differences in dietary
    habits, for example, a higher consumption of coconut and
    palm oil, mainly containing saturated fat, in Singapore.

  19. #19
    Sqwertz Guest

    Default Re: Saturated fat for tamale dough

    On Sat, 22 May 2010 12:50:52 -0700, Mark Thorson wrote:

    > Still, I have to wonder about using a fully
    > hydrogenated fat. Neither lard, beef fat, nor
    > coconut oil are fully hydrogenated.


    Commercial lard and tallow is usually some percentage of
    hydrogenated fat, usually 50% or more.

    http://www.walmart.com/ip/Armour-Lard-128-oz/10449264
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lard#Lard_production

    -sw

  20. #20
    Sqwertz Guest

    Default Re: Saturated fat for tamale dough

    On Sat, 22 May 2010 13:09:58 -0700, Mark Thorson wrote:

    > Sqwertz wrote:
    >>
    >> I won't argue his defective studies other than point out that
    >> half the world uses coconut and palm oils as their primary source of
    >> cooing oil. And they are not keeling over from saturated fat intake
    >> or high cholesterol.

    >
    > Comparative studies...


    You know this is why people don't read your posts or care what you
    have to say.

    Congrats. You lasted 4 hours out of the killfile. UIc an read
    scientific studies all day long - I need to waste my precious Usenet
    bandwidth a monkey posting them.

    -sw

    -sw

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