Red wine with fish?

Hello All!

An article in the Scientific American on October 22, 2009 begins as
follows:

Red Wine with Fish? Ironic Answer
In a study published in the Journal of Agricultural and Food Chemistry,
researchers found that red wine only clashes with fish if the wine has
high levels of iron. The research seems well organized.


The problem is that high levels of iron in the wine seem to accent
fishiness. There actually are recipes on the net for red wine braising
of turbot, swordfish and even salmon. Since I like fresh fish but detest
"fishy" tastes, I wonder if anyone has experience with fish cooked in
red wine?

--


James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

Email, with obvious alterations:
not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

On Sat, 7 Nov 2009 11:33:09 -0500, "James Silverton"
<not.jim.silverton@verizon.net> wrote:

-->Hello All!
-->
-->An article in the Scientific American on October 22, 2009 begins as
-->follows:
-->
-->Red Wine with Fish? Ironic Answer
-->In a study published in the Journal of Agricultural and Food Chemistry,
-->researchers found that red wine only clashes with fish if the wine has
-->high levels of iron. The research seems well organized.
-->
-->
-->The problem is that high levels of iron in the wine seem to accent
-->fishiness. There actually are recipes on the net for red wine braising
-->of turbot, swordfish and even salmon. Since I like fresh fish but detest
-->"fishy" tastes, I wonder if anyone has experience with fish cooked in
-->red wine?


I've used Merlot, and found that because of the acidity in the wine the
fishyness isn't noticeable.

Try a sauvignon blanc, it's wonderful with sea bass.

In article <8eebf5pnht9njnh96jc6buabvrdbljdb66@4ax.com>,
Stu <recipes@foodforu.ca> wrote:

> On Sat, 7 Nov 2009 11:33:09 -0500, "James Silverton"
> <not.jim.silverton@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> -->Hello All!
> -->
> -->An article in the Scientific American on October 22, 2009 begins as
> -->follows:
> -->
> -->Red Wine with Fish? Ironic Answer
> -->In a study published in the Journal of Agricultural and Food Chemistry,
> -->researchers found that red wine only clashes with fish if the wine has
> -->high levels of iron. The research seems well organized.
> -->
> -->
> -->The problem is that high levels of iron in the wine seem to accent
> -->fishiness. There actually are recipes on the net for red wine braising
> -->of turbot, swordfish and even salmon. Since I like fresh fish but detest
> -->"fishy" tastes, I wonder if anyone has experience with fish cooked in
> -->red wine?
>
>
> I've used Merlot, and found that because of the acidity in the wine the
> fishyness isn't noticeable.
>
> Try a sauvignon blanc, it's wonderful with sea bass.

Try vermouth. ;-)
--
Peace! Om

"Human nature seems to be to control other people until they put their foot down."
--Steve Rothstein

Web Albums: <http://picasaweb.google.com/OMPOmelet>
recfoodrecipes@yahoogroups.com
Subscribe: recfoodrecipes-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

James Silverton <not.jim.silverton@verizon.net> wrote:

> An article in the Scientific American on October 22, 2009 begins as
> follows:
>
> Red Wine with Fish? Ironic Answer
> In a study published in the Journal of Agricultural and Food Chemistry,
> researchers found that red wine only clashes with fish if the wine has
> high levels of iron. The research seems well organized.

I do not know if the study or the article are well-organised or good,
but that statement, taken by itself, is patent nonsense, of course
(which is perhaps why they call it ironic), and it wouldn't be much
different if it was meat that was being discussed. There is much more
to clashing or complementing than one single component of anything,
particularly considering numerous methods and ingredients used to cook
fish (or meat, for that matter).

> The problem is that high levels of iron in the wine seem to accent
> fishiness. There actually are recipes on the net for red wine braising
> of turbot, swordfish and even salmon. Since I like fresh fish but detest
> "fishy" tastes, I wonder if anyone has experience with fish cooked in
> red wine?

Fish cooked or served with red wine is nothing at all new or unusual.
In France, matelote (a fish stew, often made with eels) or the Provençal
variation, poisson en raito, is almost synonymous with red wine, but of
course in Alsace they cook and serve it with Riesling or another white
wine. Lamproies (lampreys) or aloses (shad) à la bordelaise are cooked
and served with red wine (particularly St-Emilion). The famous eels,
fresh or marinated, from the Comacchio lagoons between Ferrara and Adria
are traditionally served with the local Bosco Eliceo red wine. Luccio
(pike) alla marinara is also cooked and served with red wine. Truchas
(trout) a la Navarra in Spain are cooked and served with red wine, too.

Of course, as with any other dish, it is something you either like or
not, but the above combinations have been used for centuries. Generally
speaking, such strongly flavoured, fatty fish as salmon, tunny fish,
eel, or lamprey, if cooked in red wine, tends to behave rather like
chicken or veal similarly cooked.

Victor

Victor wrote on Sun, 8 Nov 2009 00:29:07 +0100:

> Of course, as with any other dish, it is something you either
> like or not, but the above combinations have been used for
> centuries. Generally speaking, such strongly flavoured, fatty
> fish as salmon, tunny fish, eel, or lamprey, if cooked in red
> wine, tends to behave rather like chicken or veal similarly
> cooked.

Well, I am going to have to try one of these red wine dishes but not any
"strongly flavored" fish. That to me means "fishy" but I think I'll
start with swordfish.

--

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

"James Silverton" wrote

> Well, I am going to have to try one of these red wine dishes but not any
> "strongly flavored" fish. That to me means "fishy" but I think I'll
> start with swordfish.


I've never much noted red or white wine when it comes to food.

Whoever declared such a thing?

I'm a fan of white wine. Red is too acidic for my taste.

Andy

In article <hd6guk$1q7$1@news.eternal-september.org>, "James Silverton" <not.jim.silverton@verizon.net> wrote:
> Victor wrote on Sun, 8 Nov 2009 00:29:07 +0100:
>
>> Of course, as with any other dish, it is something you either
>> like or not, but the above combinations have been used for
>> centuries. Generally speaking, such strongly flavoured, fatty
>> fish as salmon, tunny fish, eel, or lamprey, if cooked in red
>> wine, tends to behave rather like chicken or veal similarly
>> cooked.
>
>Well, I am going to have to try one of these red wine dishes but not any
>"strongly flavored" fish. That to me means "fishy" but I think I'll
>start with swordfish.

For crying out loud, Jim, why not start with something edible! :-)

Cheers, Phred.

--
ppnerkDELETE@THISyahoo.com.INVALID

On Sun, 08 Nov 2009 07:38:03 -0600, Andy <a@b.c> wrote:

-->"James Silverton" wrote
-->
-->> Well, I am going to have to try one of these red wine dishes but not any
-->> "strongly flavored" fish. That to me means "fishy" but I think I'll
-->> start with swordfish.
-->
-->
-->I've never much noted red or white wine when it comes to food.
-->
-->Whoever declared such a thing?
-->
-->I'm a fan of white wine. Red is too acidic for my taste.
-->
-->Andy


Perhaps someone that knows more about cooking and pairing than you?
Your preference is white, many perfer white with some dishes, some red.
That's what this newsgroup is all about, learning.

Stu <recipes@foodforu.ca> wrote in
news:23ndf51dp1t3fpbmkcug2id0ir0m16qcla@4ax.com:

> On Sun, 08 Nov 2009 07:38:03 -0600, Andy <a@b.c> wrote:
>
> -->"James Silverton" wrote
> -->
> -->> Well, I am going to have to try one of these red wine dishes but
> not any -->> "strongly flavored" fish. That to me means "fishy" but I
> think I'll -->> start with swordfish.
> -->
> -->
> -->I've never much noted red or white wine when it comes to food.
> -->
> -->Whoever declared such a thing?
> -->
> -->I'm a fan of white wine. Red is too acidic for my taste.
> -->
> -->Andy
>
>
> Perhaps someone that knows more about cooking and pairing than you?
> Your preference is white, many perfer white with some dishes, some
> red. That's what this newsgroup is all about, learning.


Look out folks it's Stu Spew!

Andy

Phred wrote on Sun, 08 Nov 2009 14:52:35 GMT:

> In article <hd6guk$1q7$1@news.eternal-september.org>, "James
> Silverton" <not.jim.silverton@verizon.net> wrote:
>> Victor wrote on Sun, 8 Nov 2009 00:29:07 +0100:
>>
>>> Of course, as with any other dish, it is something you
>>> either like or not, but the above combinations have been
>>> used for centuries. Generally speaking, such strongly
>>> flavoured, fatty fish as salmon, tunny fish, eel, or
>>> lamprey, if cooked in red wine, tends to behave rather like
>>> chicken or veal similarly cooked.
>>
>> Well, I am going to have to try one of these red wine dishes
>> but not any "strongly flavored" fish. That to me means
>> "fishy" but I think I'll start with swordfish.

> For crying out loud, Jim, why not start with something edible!
> :-)

Hi Phred!

I first had swordfish when I came to the US a very long time ago. I
liked it then and I like it now but I've usually just had it simply
grilled. Just what are your preferences in "edible" fish? It sometimes
seems to me that most fish that I like is now "overfished". :-(

--

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

On Sun, 08 Nov 2009 09:12:20 -0600, Andy <a@b.c> wrote:

-->Stu <recipes@foodforu.ca> wrote in
-->news:23ndf51dp1t3fpbmkcug2id0ir0m16qcla@4ax.com :
-->
-->> On Sun, 08 Nov 2009 07:38:03 -0600, Andy <a@b.c> wrote:
-->>
-->> -->"James Silverton" wrote
-->> -->
-->> -->> Well, I am going to have to try one of these red wine dishes but
-->> not any -->> "strongly flavored" fish. That to me means "fishy" but I
-->> think I'll -->> start with swordfish.
-->> -->
-->> -->
-->> -->I've never much noted red or white wine when it comes to food.
-->> -->
-->> -->Whoever declared such a thing?
-->> -->
-->> -->I'm a fan of white wine. Red is too acidic for my taste.
-->> -->
-->> -->Andy
-->>
-->>
-->> Perhaps someone that knows more about cooking and pairing than you?
-->> Your preference is white, many perfer white with some dishes, some
-->> red. That's what this newsgroup is all about, learning.
-->
-->
-->Look out folks it's Stu Spew!
-->
-->Andy


Can't handle the truth Andy, perhaps alt.fast.food is more to your liking?

James Silverton wrote:
> Victor wrote on Sun, 8 Nov 2009 00:29:07 +0100:
>
>> Of course, as with any other dish, it is something you either
>> like or not, but the above combinations have been used for
>> centuries. Generally speaking, such strongly flavoured, fatty
>> fish as salmon, tunny fish, eel, or lamprey, if cooked in red
>> wine, tends to behave rather like chicken or veal similarly
>> cooked.
>
>
> Well, I am going to have to try one of these red wine dishes but not any
> "strongly flavored" fish. That to me means "fishy" but I think I'll
> start with swordfish.
>

THere are a number of classic French recipes, i have a few, let me know
if you are interested and i can post a selection.

Red wine court bouillon is recommended for trout, carp and matelotes.
Matelote a la meuniere is cooked with red wine and then flamed with
brandy and the remaining poaching liquid thickened with a beurre manie
(butter & flour).

Ever cook your fish with beer?

Carpe A la Biere?
--

Mr. Joseph Littleshoes Esq.

Domine, dirige nos.
Let the games begin!
http://fredeeky.typepad.com/fredeeky.../sf_anthem.mp3

Mr. wrote on Sun, 08 Nov 2009 10:57:23 -0800:


> James Silverton wrote:
>> Victor wrote on Sun, 8 Nov 2009 00:29:07 +0100:
>>
>>> Of course, as with any other dish, it is something you
>>> either like or not, but the above combinations have been
>>> used for centuries. Generally speaking, such strongly
>>> flavoured, fatty fish as salmon, tunny fish, eel, or
>>> lamprey, if cooked in red wine, tends to behave rather like chicken
>>> or veal similarly cooked.
>>
>> Well, I am going to have to try one of these red wine dishes but not
>> any "strongly flavored" fish. That to me means
>> "fishy" but I think I'll start with swordfish.
>>
> THere are a number of classic French recipes, i have a few,
> let me know if you are interested and i can post a selection.

> Red wine court bouillon is recommended for trout, carp and
> matelotes. Matelote a la meuniere is cooked with red wine and then
> flamed with brandy and the remaining poaching liquid
> thickened with a beurre manie (butter & flour).

> Ever cook your fish with beer?

> Carpe A la Biere?

I've never tried cooking fish in beer and it might work for salmon but I
don't like carp much anyway. However. I'd really like to have your
recipe for trout in red wine. What's a matelote, incidentally?
--

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

Stu <recipes@foodforu.ca> wrote in
news:slvdf5tljpebtihqqn6u58vbrs37h19gl9@4ax.com:

> On Sun, 08 Nov 2009 09:12:20 -0600, Andy <a@b.c> wrote:
>
> -->Stu <recipes@foodforu.ca> wrote in
> -->news:23ndf51dp1t3fpbmkcug2id0ir0m16qcla@4ax.com :
> -->
> -->> On Sun, 08 Nov 2009 07:38:03 -0600, Andy <a@b.c> wrote:
> -->>
> -->> -->"James Silverton" wrote
> -->> -->
> -->> -->> Well, I am going to have to try one of these red wine dishes
> but -->> not any -->> "strongly flavored" fish. That to me means
> "fishy" but I -->> think I'll -->> start with swordfish.
> -->> -->
> -->> -->
> -->> -->I've never much noted red or white wine when it comes to food.
> -->> -->
> -->> -->Whoever declared such a thing?
> -->> -->
> -->> -->I'm a fan of white wine. Red is too acidic for my taste.
> -->> -->
> -->> -->Andy
> -->>
> -->>
> -->> Perhaps someone that knows more about cooking and pairing than
> you? -->> Your preference is white, many perfer white with some
> dishes, some -->> red. That's what this newsgroup is all about,
> learning. -->
> -->
> -->Look out folks it's Stu Spew!
> -->
> -->Andy
>
>
> Can't handle the truth Andy, perhaps alt.fast.food is more to your
> liking?


How it must beel to be you, blue, Stu.

Welcome to my plonk file.

James Silverton wrote:
> Mr. wrote on Sun, 08 Nov 2009 10:57:23 -0800:
>
>
>> James Silverton wrote:
>>
>>> Victor wrote on Sun, 8 Nov 2009 00:29:07 +0100:
>>>
>>>> Of course, as with any other dish, it is something you
>>>> either like or not, but the above combinations have been
>>>> used for centuries. Generally speaking, such strongly
>>>> flavoured, fatty fish as salmon, tunny fish, eel, or
>>>> lamprey, if cooked in red wine, tends to behave rather like chicken
>>>> or veal similarly cooked.
>>>
>>>
>>> Well, I am going to have to try one of these red wine dishes but not
>>> any "strongly flavored" fish. That to me means
>>> "fishy" but I think I'll start with swordfish.
>>>
>> THere are a number of classic French recipes, i have a few,
>> let me know if you are interested and i can post a selection.
>
>
>> Red wine court bouillon is recommended for trout, carp and
>> matelotes. Matelote a la meuniere is cooked with red wine and then
>> flamed with brandy and the remaining poaching liquid
>> thickened with a beurre manie (butter & flour).
>
>
>> Ever cook your fish with beer?
>
>
>> Carpe A la Biere?
>
>
> I've never tried cooking fish in beer and it might work for salmon but I
> don't like carp much anyway. However. I'd really like to have your
> recipe for trout in red wine. What's a matelote, incidentally?

A type of fish stew. Similar in some respects to Waterzoi and Bouillabaisse.


The simplest, "Truites au Vin Rouge" is just small trout's poached for
10 minutes in a red wine court bouillon.

The following is from Escoffier's La Guide Culinaire.

Red wine court bouillon.

To make 1 & 3/8 U.S. Gallon

5 & 3/8 pint red wine
5 & 3/8 pint water
1 lb. 5 ounces sliced onion
3 ounces parsley stalks
1 sprig thyme
1.2 a small bay leaf
2 ounces course salt
1/2 ounce peppercorns
15 ounces sliced carrots.

"Place all the ingredients excepting the peppercorns into a pan, bring
to the boil and simmer gently for 30 minutes. Ten minutes before is is
cooked, add the peppercorns; pass through a strainer when ready.

Note: When fish is prepared with only a little red wine court bouillon,
and then they are to be served with some of the court bouillon including
the vegetables, these should be very well cooked; a little fresh butter
should be added to the court bouillon at the last moment."

Escoffier does go on to note that when preparing small amounts of trout
this way it should be done on a buttered tray or shallow pan, seasoned
with salt and with very little red wine bouillon, just enough to moisten
the fish, cover (not with paper!) and cook in a moderate oven,
occasionally basting, he recommends this even more for whole fish than
filets.

When cooked, drain carefully and plate, the reduced cooking liquid from
the fish is 'always' used to make a sauce with.
--

Mr. Joseph Littleshoes Esq.

Domine, dirige nos.
Let the games begin!
http://fredeeky.typepad.com/fredeeky.../sf_anthem.mp3

James Silverton <not.jim.silverton@verizon.net> wrote:

> Victor wrote on Sun, 8 Nov 2009 00:29:07 +0100:
>
> > Of course, as with any other dish, it is something you either
> > like or not, but the above combinations have been used for
> > centuries. Generally speaking, such strongly flavoured, fatty
> > fish as salmon, tunny fish, eel, or lamprey, if cooked in red
> > wine, tends to behave rather like chicken or veal similarly
> > cooked.
>
> Well, I am going to have to try one of these red wine dishes but not any
> "strongly flavored" fish. That to me means "fishy" but I think I'll
> start with swordfish.

But such fish as eel and lamprey are not at all "fishy" in the usual
sense of the word. They are unlike any other fish... unlike anything
else on earth, actually.

Victor

James Silverton <not.jim.silverton@verizon.net> wrote:

> What's a matelote, incidentally?

The word "matelote" comes from the sometime French word for "sailor" and
the premise of the dish is a meat stew. Matelote is a lot closer in
both concept and execution to red-wine stews of the bourguignon type
(sometimes even including lardons and mushrooms) than to any of the
usual fish preparations.

Victor

In article <hd6oh1$t7k$1@news.eternal-september.org>, "James Silverton" <not.jim.silverton@verizon.net> wrote:
> Phred wrote on Sun, 08 Nov 2009 14:52:35 GMT:
>
>> In article <hd6guk$1q7$1@news.eternal-september.org>, "James
>> Silverton" <not.jim.silverton@verizon.net> wrote:
>>> Victor wrote on Sun, 8 Nov 2009 00:29:07 +0100:
>>>
>>>> Of course, as with any other dish, it is something you
>>>> either like or not, but the above combinations have been
>>>> used for centuries. Generally speaking, such strongly
>>>> flavoured, fatty fish as salmon, tunny fish, eel, or
>>>> lamprey, if cooked in red wine, tends to behave rather like
>>>> chicken or veal similarly cooked.
>>>
>>> Well, I am going to have to try one of these red wine dishes
>>> but not any "strongly flavored" fish. That to me means
>>> "fishy" but I think I'll start with swordfish.
>
>> For crying out loud, Jim, why not start with something edible!
>> :-)
>
>I first had swordfish when I came to the US a very long time ago. I
>liked it then and I like it now but I've usually just had it simply
>grilled. Just what are your preferences in "edible" fish? It sometimes
>seems to me that most fish that I like is now "overfished". :-(

I can sympathise with that. Many of the best here are now subject to
closed seasons; some are now totally protected if not extinct. :-(

I had mahi mahi in Honolulu >30 years ago, and it was *bloody awful*.
I was later told "mahi mahi" is a species of swordfish, but I don't
know if that is quite true. Anyway, that experience put me right off
the stuff.

My preference for fish is species with white flakey flesh and, most
importantly, freshly caught. Nearly *all* restaurant fish, and most
retail product, tastes like the bottom of the fridge. (Okay, okay, I
haven't actually tried the latter, but I can imagine! :-) I suspect
that could be the same "fishy" flavour you find disagreeable.

Cheers, Phred.

--
ppnerkDELETE@THISyahoo.com.INVALID

Phred wrote on Mon, 09 Nov 2009 11:26:59 GMT:


> I had mahi mahi in Honolulu >30 years ago, and it was *bloody
> awful*. I was later told "mahi mahi" is a species of
> swordfish, but I don't know if that is quite true. Anyway,
> that experience put me right off the stuff.

> My preference for fish is species with white flakey flesh and,
> most importantly, freshly caught. Nearly *all* restaurant
> fish, and most retail product, tastes like the bottom of the
> fridge. (Okay, okay, I haven't actually tried the latter, but
> I can imagine! :-) I suspect that could be the same "fishy"
> flavour you find disagreeable.

I've had good grilled mahi mahi in Honolulu and it's actually a dolphin
fish. Mahi mahi seems to be in fairly general use to avoid confusion
with the dolphin mammal. When I first came to DC, I had good deep fried
fish in a few places but recently, I've only had really fresh deep fried
flounder in Thai restaurants.

> Cheers, Phred.



--

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

On Mon, 09 Nov 2009 11:26:59 GMT, ppnerkDELETETHIS@yahoo.com (Phred)
wrote:

>I had mahi mahi in Honolulu 30 years ago, and it was *bloody awful*.
>I was later told "mahi mahi" is a species of swordfish, but I don't
>know if that is quite true. Anyway, that experience put me right off
>the stuff.

Mahi mahi is not swordfish. http://www.kuuloakai.com/quarry.asp
scroll down. I don't know what you ate, but mahi mahi is one of my
favorite fish. We fished for them in Florida before the days of
Flipper. Back then we could call them Dolphin without saying "fish"
and everyone knew what we were talking about.

--
I love cooking with wine.
Sometimes I even put it in the food.