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Thread: Re: Who died?

  1. #1
    ImStillMags Guest

    Default Re: Who died?

    A lot of cities fly the flag at half mast if a local soldier is killed in Afghanistan, Iraq, etc.

  2. #2
    Dave Smith Guest

    Default Re: Who died?

    On 06/04/2011 6:32 PM, ImStillMags wrote:
    > A lot of cities fly the flag at half mast if a local soldier is killed in Afghanistan, Iraq, etc.


    I don't know why they do that. There was a big stink about that here in
    Canada. Some people were adamant that the flag should be at half staff
    whenever a soldier was killed over there. It is ironic that people
    should make such a demand as if it were proper flag etiquette. It isn't.
    The flag is only supposed to be lowered for the death of the sovereign
    and for a number of specific occasions, one of them being Nov.11,
    Remembrance Day. On that date it is lowered to honour all fallen
    soldiers, treating them all equally. Hell, if we had flags at half staff
    for each of our soldiers killed during WW I and WW II we would probably
    still have the flag down.

    Most soldiers know about flag etiquette and would not expect the flag to
    be lowered in their honour.

  3. #3
    Michel Boucher Guest

    Default Re: Who died?

    Dave Smith <[email protected]> wrote in
    news:eg6np.415611$[email protected] .com:

    > Hell, if we had flags at half staff
    > for each of our soldiers killed during WW I and WW II we would
    > probably still have the flag down.


    Well, as a reminder that Canadians are dying in a pointless land
    war in Asia, you could not do better.

    In 2006, the Conservatives "discontinued the practice" of flying
    the flag at half-mast for significant deaths. The first and
    nearly last time this occurred outside of circumstances of
    protocol was in April 2002 when the Liberal government lowered
    the flag at half-mast following the Tarnak farm incident in which
    four Canadian soldiers were killed by a laser-guided 500 elbee
    bomb launched from an F-16 piloted by an ill-informed Air
    National Guard pilot, Maj. Harry Schmidt. The significance is
    that these soldiers were the first to die in that war. Three
    other incidents involving four soldiers (in 2003, 2004 and 2005)
    were noted by lowering the flag.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarnak_Farm_incident

    If Harper could have kept it in his pants and not ratcheted up
    the violence, it would not be a widespread occurence. Once a
    year for four years isn't a permanent thing. But he just *had*
    to play PFC Bob...

    In 2008, the House passed a resolution that the flag should be
    lowered to half-mast for every single military death abroad.
    Harper, with his usual Tory arrogance, ignored the will of the
    House.

    --

    The Bible! Because all the works of science cannot equal the
    wisdom of cattle-sacrificing primitives who thought every
    animal species in the world lived within walking distance of
    Noah's house.

  4. #4
    Dave Smith Guest

    Default Re: Who died?

    On 06/04/2011 7:54 PM, Michel Boucher wrote:
    > Dave Smith<[email protected]> wrote in
    > news:eg6np.415611$[email protected] .com:
    >
    >> Hell, if we had flags at half staff
    >> for each of our soldiers killed during WW I and WW II we would
    >> probably still have the flag down.

    >
    > Well, as a reminder that Canadians are dying in a pointless land
    > war in Asia, you could not do better.



    It is irrelevant whether or not yo thing it is a pointless war. My
    issue is that there is a protocol for the lowering of the flag, and it
    does not include the deaths of individual soldiers or groups of
    soldiers. It is an honour reserved for the sovereign, and not
    appropriate for individual soldiers. They get that honour collectively
    on Nov.11.

    There was a similar furor in the UK when Diana Spencer was died in a
    drinking and driving accident in Paris. People were upset that the flag
    was not lowered at Balmoral. The press was all bent out of shape and
    claimed that the public demanded it. The thing is that the proper
    protocol is that there be no flag flying there. When the queen is in
    residence they fly the royal standard, and the royal standard is never
    flown at half staff, not even in mourning.


    People are getting carried away with lowering flags these days. Cities
    do it for local politicians, policemen, firemen. Schools do it for
    teachers, board members and students who have died. IMO, it is
    inappropriate. The flag represents the nation and that should trump an
    individual. There are many other ways to honour those who have died.

  5. #5
    M. JL Esq. Guest

    Default Re: Who died?

    Dave Smith wrote:
    > On 06/04/2011 7:54 PM, Michel Boucher wrote:
    >
    >> Dave Smith<[email protected]> wrote in
    >> news:eg6np.415611$[email protected] .com:
    >>
    >>> Hell, if we had flags at half staff
    >>> for each of our soldiers killed during WW I and WW II we would
    >>> probably still have the flag down.

    >>
    >>
    >> Well, as a reminder that Canadians are dying in a pointless land
    >> war in Asia, you could not do better.

    >
    >
    >
    > It is irrelevant whether or not yo thing it is a pointless war. My
    > issue is that there is a protocol for the lowering of the flag, and it
    > does not include the deaths of individual soldiers or groups of
    > soldiers. It is an honour reserved for the sovereign, and not
    > appropriate for individual soldiers. They get that honour collectively
    > on Nov.11.
    >
    > There was a similar furor in the UK when Diana Spencer was died in a
    > drinking and driving accident in Paris. People were upset that the flag
    > was not lowered at Balmoral. The press was all bent out of shape and
    > claimed that the public demanded it. The thing is that the proper
    > protocol is that there be no flag flying there. When the queen is in
    > residence they fly the royal standard, and the royal standard is never
    > flown at half staff, not even in mourning.
    >
    >
    > People are getting carried away with lowering flags these days. Cities
    > do it for local politicians, policemen, firemen. Schools do it for
    > teachers, board members and students who have died. IMO, it is
    > inappropriate. The flag represents the nation and that should trump an
    > individual. There are many other ways to honour those who have died.


    EVen that "font of honour" lowered the union jack over buckingham palace
    during the funeral procession, as well as bowing to Diana's hearse as it
    went by.

    And imo only because she felt the rumble of the tumbrels.
    --
    JL

  6. #6
    sf Guest

    Default Re: Who died?

    On Wed, 06 Apr 2011 19:00:25 -0400, Dave Smith
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    > On 06/04/2011 6:32 PM, ImStillMags wrote:
    > > A lot of cities fly the flag at half mast if a local soldier is killed in Afghanistan, Iraq, etc.

    >
    > I don't know why they do that. There was a big stink about that here in
    > Canada. Some people were adamant that the flag should be at half staff
    > whenever a soldier was killed over there. It is ironic that people
    > should make such a demand as if it were proper flag etiquette. It isn't.
    > The flag is only supposed to be lowered for the death of the sovereign
    > and for a number of specific occasions, one of them being Nov.11,
    > Remembrance Day. On that date it is lowered to honour all fallen
    > soldiers, treating them all equally. Hell, if we had flags at half staff
    > for each of our soldiers killed during WW I and WW II we would probably
    > still have the flag down.
    >
    > Most soldiers know about flag etiquette and would not expect the flag to
    > be lowered in their honour.


    We have a national cemetery (soldiers are buried there) near us and
    the flag is usually half mast. I'm always surprised when it's not.
    Honestly, I don't know what triggers the flag not to be at half mast
    on those days. Maybe no soldier was killed the day before, I dunno.

    --

    Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut that held its ground.

  7. #7
    Jim Elbrecht Guest

    Default Re: Who died?

    Dave Smith <[email protected]> wrote:

    -snip-
    >
    >Most soldiers know about flag etiquette and would not expect the flag to
    >be lowered in their honour.


    The US changed their code during the last administration to allow
    Governors to order flags in their state to half-staff for whatever
    reason they choose.

    http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/4/7(m).html
    "In the event of the death of a present or former official . . . or
    the death of a member of the Armed Forces from any State, territory,
    or possession who dies while serving on active duty, the Governor of
    that State, territory, or possession may proclaim that the National
    flag shall be flown at half-staff"

    NY was lowering theirs for every NY soldier killed. I see MT does
    something similar. I'll bet most states do.

    The problem with that scenario, IMO, is that it diminishes the respect
    that half-staff implies. And with >50 Gov's et al. getting to call
    the shots, there is no single place that tells you where US flags are
    flying at half-staff.

    Jim

  8. #8
    Michel Boucher Guest

    Default Re: Who died?

    Dave Smith <[email protected]> wrote in news:qT7np.291686
    $[email protected]:

    >>> Hell, if we had flags at half staff
    >>> for each of our soldiers killed during WW I and WW II we would
    >>> probably still have the flag down.

    >>
    >> Well, as a reminder that Canadians are dying in a pointless land
    >> war in Asia, you could not do better.

    >
    > It is irrelevant whether or not yo thing it is a pointless war.


    I'm not debating protocol, just pointing out the obvious. However,
    the flag CAN be lowered to half-mast for any reason the government
    decides, and on Parliament Hill, that includes MPs, Senators,
    former Governors-General and former Prime Ministers.

    I could see the flag atop the Peace Tower from my desk and would
    always check, when it was "en berne", the Parliamentary web site
    home page as it would explain the reason why in the left-hand
    panel. It happens more often than you think.

    --

    The Bible! Because all the works of science cannot equal the
    wisdom of cattle-sacrificing primitives who thought every
    animal species in the world lived within walking distance of
    Noah's house.

  9. #9
    Dave Smith Guest

    Default Re: Who died?

    On 07/04/2011 8:09 AM, Jim Elbrecht wrote:

    > The problem with that scenario, IMO, is that it diminishes the respect
    > that half-staff implies.


    Exactly. The flag represents the nation, not the individual.Reserving
    the lowering of the flag for the head of state makes it something
    special. The thing that irks me most is that people push(ed) for
    lowering the flags as if it is the proper thing to do. It isn't. If we
    are going to start lowering the flag for individual soldiers and for
    people in other public positions and school teachers and students, then
    we should lower it for everyone.



    > And with>50 Gov's et al. getting to call
    > the shots, there is no single place that tells you where US flags are
    > flying at half-staff.



    In some places flag etiquette is enforced. On one of our trips to
    Denmark a friend was anxious about getting home because he had left his
    flag up and wanted to get home before dark and he did not want to get
    into trouble. When we finally got back he was relieved to find that a
    neighbour had taken it down for him.

  10. #10
    J. Clarke Guest

    Default Re: Who died?

    In article <HZinp.102592$[email protected]> ,
    [email protected] says...
    >
    > On 07/04/2011 8:09 AM, Jim Elbrecht wrote:
    >
    > > The problem with that scenario, IMO, is that it diminishes the respect
    > > that half-staff implies.

    >
    > Exactly. The flag represents the nation, not the individual.Reserving
    > the lowering of the flag for the head of state makes it something
    > special. The thing that irks me most is that people push(ed) for
    > lowering the flags as if it is the proper thing to do. It isn't. If we
    > are going to start lowering the flag for individual soldiers and for
    > people in other public positions and school teachers and students, then
    > we should lower it for everyone.


    Maybe they should just decree that it flies at half-staff unless the
    President orders otherwise and be done with it.

    > > And with>50 Gov's et al. getting to call
    > > the shots, there is no single place that tells you where US flags are
    > > flying at half-staff.

    >
    >
    > In some places flag etiquette is enforced. On one of our trips to
    > Denmark a friend was anxious about getting home because he had left his
    > flag up and wanted to get home before dark and he did not want to get
    > into trouble. When we finally got back he was relieved to find that a
    > neighbour had taken it down for him.




  11. #11
    Mark Thorson Guest

    Default Re: Who died?

    ImStillMags wrote:

    > A lot of cities fly the flag at half mast if a local soldier is killed in Afghanistan, Iraq, etc.


    Which is improper flaf ettiquette, unless there has been
    a Presidential proclamation instructing that it be done.



  12. #12
    gloria.p Guest

    Default Re: Who died?

    On 4/6/2011 6:50 PM, Dave Smith wrote:

    >
    >
    > People are getting carried away with lowering flags these days. Cities
    > do it for local politicians, policemen, firemen. Schools do it for
    > teachers, board members and students who have died. IMO, it is
    > inappropriate. The flag represents the nation and that should trump an
    > individual. There are many other ways to honour those who have died.



    Perhaps there should be a black "mourning" flag or banner that could be
    flown below the national flag to honor the people mentioned above.

    gloria p


  13. #13
    Jim Elbrecht Guest

    Default Re: Who died?

    On Thu, 07 Apr 2011 07:20:19 -0800, Mark Thorson <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    >ImStillMags wrote:
    >
    >> A lot of cities fly the flag at half mast if a local soldier is killed in Afghanistan, Iraq, etc.

    >
    >Which is improper flaf ettiquette, unless there has been
    >a Presidential proclamation instructing that it be done.
    >


    In 2007 governors were given the same powers to honor fallen
    servicemen from their state.

    Jim

  14. #14
    I'm back. Guest

    Default Re: Who died?

    Jim Elbrecht <[email protected]> wrote in
    news:[email protected]:

    > On Thu, 07 Apr 2011 07:20:19 -0800, Mark Thorson <[email protected]>
    > wrote:
    >
    >>ImStillMags wrote:
    >>
    >>> A lot of cities fly the flag at half mast if a local soldier is killed
    >>> in Afghanistan, Iraq, etc.

    >>
    >>Which is improper flaf ettiquette, unless there has been
    >>a Presidential proclamation instructing that it be done.
    >>

    >
    > In 2007 governors were given the same powers to honor fallen
    > servicemen from their state.
    >
    > Jim
    >




    "Presidential proclamation"... "flaf(sic) ettiquette"..... what a crock of
    ****.

    It's a sign of *respect* for what has been done, and what has been given.

    You pedants with your precious little ettiquette/rule books...... go shove
    'em up your arse.

    *Every* time an Aussie soldier is KIA, I lower the flag to half mast at
    work.
    And it has caught on..... now, right thru' our suburb, whenever an Aussie
    is KIA *every* place that flies a flag, lowers it.

    It is now done twice for the one soldier. When he is KIA, and when he
    finally comes home and makes the last journey to his resting place.

    It's all about *respect*.

    Phuk the President and his "proclamations".

    --
    Peter Lucas
    Hobart
    Tasmania

    Nothing ever truely dies
    the Universe wastes nothing
    everything is simply... transformed

  15. #15
    Michel Boucher Guest

    Default Re: Who died?

    "gloria.p" <[email protected]> wrote in
    news:inkkrd$8hv$[email protected]:

    > Perhaps there should be a black "mourning" flag or banner
    > that could be flown below the national flag to honor the
    > people mentioned above.


    Cute, but lowering the flag to half-mast achieves the same result.

    --

    The Bible! Because all the works of science cannot equal the
    wisdom of cattle-sacrificing primitives who thought every
    animal species in the world lived within walking distance of
    Noah's house.

  16. #16
    Doug Freyburger Guest

    Default Re: Who died?

    Dave Smith wrote:
    > Jim Elbrecht wrote:
    >
    >> The problem with that scenario, IMO, is that it diminishes the respect
    >> that half-staff implies.

    >
    > Exactly. The flag represents the nation, not the individual.


    In my geography a lot of municipalities have a national flag and a
    circle of service flags. When a Marine from the area is killed, the day
    it is reported the USMC flag in that town, and so on for any other armed
    service.

    It's a good compromise. When the governor orders flags at half staff
    it's something that spans more than one town. When it's something local
    it's a service flag that's lowered. Respect at the local loss without
    the loss of national respect.

  17. #17
    spamtrap1888 Guest

    Default Re: Who died?

    On Apr 7, 6:28*am, Dave Smith <adavid.sm...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
    > On 07/04/2011 8:09 AM, Jim Elbrecht wrote:
    >
    > > The problem with that scenario, IMO, is that it diminishes the respect
    > > that half-staff implies.

    >


    Someone gave his life for his country -- that's not worthy of respect
    where you live?

    > In some places flag etiquette is enforced. On one of our trips to
    > Denmark a friend was anxious about getting home because he had left his
    > flag up and wanted to get home before dark and he did not want to get
    > into trouble. When we finally got back he was relieved to find that a
    > neighbour had taken it down for him.


    In few countries do residents fly their flags. Customarily only
    government outposts do.

  18. #18
    Dave Smith Guest

    Default Re: Who died?

    On 08/04/2011 1:02 AM, spamtrap1888 wrote:

    >> In some places flag etiquette is enforced. On one of our trips to
    >> Denmark a friend was anxious about getting home because he had left his
    >> flag up and wanted to get home before dark and he did not want to get
    >> into trouble. When we finally got back he was relieved to find that a
    >> neighbour had taken it down for him.

    >
    > In few countries do residents fly their flags. Customarily only
    > government outposts do.


    If people are going to fly flags they should observe the rules. There
    are a lot of Americans who own property around here, and people who have
    moved here. Some of them fly American flags in their yards. That is
    inappropriate to the point of offensiveness. It is acceptable to fly an
    American flag if there is a more prominently flown Canadian flag, not
    not an American flag on its own.

  19. #19
    Janet Guest

    Default Re: Who died?

    In article <8nEnp.116822$[email protected]> ,
    [email protected] says...
    >
    > On 08/04/2011 1:02 AM, spamtrap1888 wrote:
    >
    > >> In some places flag etiquette is enforced. On one of our trips to
    > >> Denmark a friend was anxious about getting home because he had left his
    > >> flag up and wanted to get home before dark and he did not want to get
    > >> into trouble. When we finally got back he was relieved to find that a
    > >> neighbour had taken it down for him.

    > >
    > > In few countries do residents fly their flags. Customarily only
    > > government outposts do.


    ! nonsense

    > If people are going to fly flags they should observe the rules. There
    > are a lot of Americans who own property around here, and people who have
    > moved here. Some of them fly American flags in their yards. That is
    > inappropriate to the point of offensiveness. It is acceptable to fly an
    > American flag if there is a more prominently flown Canadian flag, not
    > not an American flag on its own.


    Oh dear. I fly a variety of flags depending on mood and guests,
    including Norwegian and Scottish national flags, Buddhist prayer flags and
    a love flag I made for my husband's birthday. American and Ethiopian
    neighbours and friends neighbour fly Scottish saltires. There's a house
    near here which has dozens of national flags from all over the world and
    flies a different one each week.

    Janet (Scotland)

  20. #20
    Doug Freyburger Guest

    Default Re: Who died?

    Dave Smith wrote:
    >
    > If people are going to fly flags they should observe the rules. There
    > are a lot of Americans who own property around here, and people who have
    > moved here. Some of them fly American flags in their yards. That is
    > inappropriate to the point of offensiveness. It is acceptable to fly an
    > American flag if there is a more prominently flown Canadian flag, not
    > not an American flag on its own.


    Flying some national flag without also flying the local national flag?
    Unacceptable. Around here it's very common to fly two national flags as
    some sort of statement about pride in heritage, but flying a single
    foreign national flag is very bad.

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