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Thread: Protein Combining

  1. #1
    Steve Pope Guest

    Default Protein Combining

    A household member is instructed, for the next couple months,
    to have a high intake of high-quality protein. In
    pondering what this means in terms of diet, it seems to me we
    want to combine as many good protein sources as possible, so that
    they complement each other.

    So I put together the following list of eight protein sources
    (from among things we normally eat or consider eating):

    1. Meat
    2. Fish
    3. Soy
    4. Dairy
    5. Eggs
    6. Nuts
    7. Legumes (other than Soy)
    8. Whole Grains (of the kind with significant protein)

    My thinking is as follows: every day, we will include at
    least five items off the list in our diet. And, in any two-day
    interval, we must include all eight. (By "include" I mean,
    at least 5, and preferably 10 or more grams of protein from that
    source.)

    So for example, yesterday we ate meat, soy, dairy, nuts,
    and grains. This meant that today, we were required to
    eat fish, eggs, and legumes, as well as at least two others
    off the list, which we did. We will continue forward in this
    manner.

    Am I nuts or does this make any sense? I am somehow more
    comfortable with this plan, than I would be with just saying,
    "Well today we ate meat (or soy) and so that's our high quality
    protein." I think there's some basis for enforcing a wide
    variety, and not just counting amino acids.

    Although today's fish was canned tuna, we're probably going
    to take advantage of the continued Oregon salmon availaibilty.

    This plan is going to get a little pricey; it means we're
    consuming about twice the fish, and twice the meat, that we
    normally would.

    Steve

  2. #2
    Janet Baraclough Guest

    Default Re: Protein Combining

    The message <hu4tf4$os0$[email protected]>
    from [email protected] (Steve Pope) contains these words:

    > This plan is going to get a little pricey; it means we're
    > consuming about twice the fish, and twice the meat, that we
    > normally would.


    If you find you haven't enough appetite to eat meat that often: some snacks

    Mashed sardines on buttered wholemeal toast. Hummus.
    Milky drinks, cream. Plain soya yoghurt has a great texture and
    slightly nutty taste.
    Fruit/ yoghurt smoothies incorporating a raw egg
    ( children over 5 and adults in normal health can eat raw egg, trust
    me). If you need the egg to be cooked, make egg custard.
    Nutbakes with chopped mushrooms, chestnuts, and egg mixed in.
    Cakes made with wholemeal flour, butter, eggs.
    Home made icecream (dairy+eggs)

    Janet




  3. #3
    Omelet Guest

    Default Re: Protein Combining

    In article <hu4tf4$os0$[email protected]>,
    [email protected] (Steve Pope) wrote:

    > A household member is instructed, for the next couple months,
    > to have a high intake of high-quality protein. In
    > pondering what this means in terms of diet, it seems to me we
    > want to combine as many good protein sources as possible, so that
    > they complement each other.
    >
    > So I put together the following list of eight protein sources
    > (from among things we normally eat or consider eating):
    >
    > 1. Meat
    > 2. Fish
    > 3. Soy
    > 4. Dairy
    > 5. Eggs
    > 6. Nuts
    > 7. Legumes (other than Soy)
    > 8. Whole Grains (of the kind with significant protein)
    >
    > My thinking is as follows: every day, we will include at
    > least five items off the list in our diet. And, in any two-day
    > interval, we must include all eight. (By "include" I mean,
    > at least 5, and preferably 10 or more grams of protein from that
    > source.)
    >
    > So for example, yesterday we ate meat, soy, dairy, nuts,
    > and grains. This meant that today, we were required to
    > eat fish, eggs, and legumes, as well as at least two others
    > off the list, which we did. We will continue forward in this
    > manner.
    >
    > Am I nuts or does this make any sense? I am somehow more
    > comfortable with this plan, than I would be with just saying,
    > "Well today we ate meat (or soy) and so that's our high quality
    > protein." I think there's some basis for enforcing a wide
    > variety, and not just counting amino acids.
    >
    > Although today's fish was canned tuna, we're probably going
    > to take advantage of the continued Oregon salmon availaibilty.
    >
    > This plan is going to get a little pricey; it means we're
    > consuming about twice the fish, and twice the meat, that we
    > normally would.
    >
    > Steve


    Chicken, eggs and legumes give you quite a bit of leeway for recipes.
    Don't forget the fiber (leafy greens) altho' the legumes will actually
    supply a good deal of that...

    IMHO protein-wise, grains contain too many calories with little protein
    to mess with.

    By meat, I presume you mean chicken, beef and pork?
    There are fish sources that cost less than beef. :-)
    --
    Peace! Om

    Web Albums: <http://picasaweb.google.com/OMPOmelet>
    *Only Irish *coffee provides in a single glass all four *essential food groups: alcohol, caffeine, sugar *and fat. --Alex Levine

  4. #4
    Steve Pope Guest

    Default Re: Protein Combining

    Omelet <[email protected]> wrote:

    >Chicken, eggs and legumes give you quite a bit of leeway for recipes.
    >Don't forget the fiber (leafy greens) altho' the legumes will actually
    >supply a good deal of that...


    Good point. One needs to not forget other nutriend when eating
    high-protein.

    >IMHO protein-wise, grains contain too many calories with little protein
    >to mess with.


    Yes; I'm not "counting" grains unless they are the higher protein
    grains -- these are whole wheat (or spelt), wild rice, or quinoa.

    (For example a tuna sandwich on whole wheat has 24 g of fish
    protein, but also have 10 g of wheat protein which is still
    significant.)

    Corn or rice do not count as protein in my approximate figuring.

    >By meat, I presume you mean chicken, beef and pork?
    >There are fish sources that cost less than beef. :-)


    Here, meat equals beef, pork or lamb; fish equals any seafood;
    we buy chicken much less often but I think we would count it
    along with meat. Haven't gotten that far yet.

    Thanks. :-)

    Steve

  5. #5
    ImStillMags Guest

    Default Re: Protein Combining

    On Jun 1, 11:24*pm, spop...@speedymail.org (Steve Pope) wrote:
    > A household member is instructed, for the next couple months,
    > to have a high intake of high-quality protein. *In
    > pondering what this means in terms of diet, it seems to me we
    > want to combine as many good protein sources as possible, so that
    > they complement each other.
    >
    > So I put together the following list of eight protein sources
    > (from among things we normally eat or consider eating):
    >
    > 1. Meat
    > 2. Fish
    > 3. Soy
    > 4. Dairy
    > 5. Eggs
    > 6. Nuts
    > 7. Legumes (other than Soy)
    > 8. Whole Grains (of the kind with significant protein)
    >
    > My thinking is as follows: every day, we will include at
    > least five items off the list in our diet. *And, in any two-day
    > interval, we must include all eight. *(By "include" I mean,
    > at least 5, and preferably 10 or more grams of protein from that
    > source.)
    >
    > So for example, yesterday we ate meat, soy, dairy, nuts,
    > and grains. *This meant that today, we were required to
    > eat fish, eggs, and legumes, as well as at least two others
    > off the list, which we did. *We will continue forward in this
    > manner.
    >
    > Am I nuts or does this make any sense? *I am somehow more
    > comfortable with this plan, than I would be with just saying,
    > "Well today we ate meat (or soy) and so that's our high quality
    > protein." *I think there's some basis for enforcing a wide
    > variety, and not just counting amino acids.
    >
    > Although today's fish was canned tuna, we're probably going
    > to take advantage of the continued Oregon salmon availaibilty.
    >
    > This plan is going to get a little pricey; it means we're
    > consuming about twice the fish, and twice the meat, that we
    > normally would.
    >
    > Steve


    You mentioned high quality protein. Don't forget that the list you
    put up contains a lot of saturated fats.
    There are other high quality protein sources especially in some fruits
    and vegetables. Here's a good article.

    High quality proteins are usually found in foods that are high in
    nutrients and protein, low in saturated fat and cholesterol. Foods
    high in saturated fat are known to increase the risk of
    atherosclerosis and coronary heart disease. Switching to high quality
    protein will help decrease your cholesterol levels and give your body
    the necessary nutrients to heal itself. High quality protein is also
    good for weight management because it helps slow down the digestion
    process. This will help keep your blood sugar level constant which
    prevents fatigue. Most people have been conditioned at an early age to
    believe that beef, poultry and fish are the best sources of protein.
    This is a misconception that can be harmful to people’s health. The
    best sources of high quality protein are from fruits and vegetables.
    Their proteins are easier to absorb, more stable, and contain little
    or no cholesterol.

    Great sources of high quality protein

    * Corn
    * Wheat
    * Peanuts
    * Tomato
    * Wild Rice
    * Squash
    * Cucumber
    * Green Beans
    * Lentils
    * Asparagus
    * Brussels Sprouts
    * Broccoli
    * Spinach

    Decent sources of protein

    * Bass
    * Chicken Breast (Skinless)
    * Haddock
    * Lobster
    * Mackerel
    * Salmon
    * Trout
    * Tuna Steak
    * Turkey Breast

  6. #6
    Steve Pope Guest

    Default Re: Protein Combining

    ImStillMags <[email protected]> wrote:

    >On Jun 1, 11:24*pm, spop...@speedymail.org (Steve Pope) wrote:


    >> 1. Meat
    >> 2. Fish
    >> 3. Soy
    >> 4. Dairy
    >> 5. Eggs
    >> 6. Nuts
    >> 7. Legumes (other than Soy)
    >> 8. Whole Grains (of the kind with significant protein)


    >You mentioned high quality protein. Don't forget that the list you
    >put up contains a lot of saturated fats.
    >There are other high quality protein sources especially in some fruits
    >and vegetables. Here's a good article.


    >High quality proteins are usually found in foods that are high in
    >nutrients and protein, low in saturated fat and cholesterol. Foods
    >high in saturated fat are known to increase the risk of
    >atherosclerosis and coronary heart disease. Switching to high quality
    >protein will help decrease your cholesterol levels and give your body
    >the necessary nutrients to heal itself. High quality protein is also
    >good for weight management because it helps slow down the digestion
    >process. This will help keep your blood sugar level constant which
    >prevents fatigue. Most people have been conditioned at an early age to
    >believe that beef, poultry and fish are the best sources of protein.
    >This is a misconception that can be harmful to people’s health. The
    >best sources of high quality protein are from fruits and vegetables.
    >Their proteins are easier to absorb, more stable, and contain little
    >or no cholesterol.


    >Great sources of high quality protein
    >
    > * Corn
    > * Wheat
    > * Peanuts
    > * Tomato
    > * Wild Rice
    > * Squash
    > * Cucumber
    > * Green Beans
    > * Lentils
    > * Asparagus
    > * Brussels Sprouts
    > * Broccoli
    > * Spinach
    >
    >Decent sources of protein
    >
    > * Bass
    > * Chicken Breast (Skinless)
    > * Haddock
    > * Lobster
    > * Mackerel
    > * Salmon
    > * Trout
    > * Tuna Steak
    > * Turkey Breast


    Thanks. I agree with this, with a couple major omissions:
    nonfat dairy products are also high quality protein (these
    include nonfat yogurt, nonfat cottage cheese, and whey protein
    isolate), and the same is true of de-fatted soy products
    (these include tofu and soy isolatae -- soy powder and TVP).

    Yes, asparagus is 25% protein calories. The problem is
    eating enough of it to get those calories. We're talking
    pounds of asparagus.

    Your list did remind me of a fact I had somewhat forgotten,
    which is on the meat/poultry spectrum, the only really low-fat
    proteins are chicken and turkey breast.

    Steve

  7. #7
    Serene Vannoy Guest

    Default Re: Protein Combining

    Steve Pope wrote:
    > A household member is instructed, for the next couple months,
    > to have a high intake of high-quality protein. In
    > pondering what this means in terms of diet, it seems to me we
    > want to combine as many good protein sources as possible, so that
    > they complement each other.


    It's really unnecessary to complement proteins. Really. Even Frankie
    Lappe says so. The body doesn't build its protein from the food at one
    meal in a discrete bundle. It's fine to space your food out over time
    and not mash everything together.

    Serene
    --
    "I tend to come down on the side of autonomy. Once people are grown up,
    I believe they have the right to go to hell in the handbasket of their
    choosing." -- Pat Kight, on alt.polyamory

  8. #8
    Christine Dabney Guest

    Default Re: Protein Combining

    On Wed, 2 Jun 2010 06:59:21 -0700 (PDT), ImStillMags
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >On Jun 1, 11:24*pm, spop...@speedymail.org (Steve Pope) wrote:
    >> A household member is instructed, for the next couple months,
    >> to have a high intake of high-quality protein. *In
    >> pondering what this means in terms of diet, it seems to me we
    >> want to combine as many good protein sources as possible, so that
    >> they complement each other.


    Steve,

    I personally would consult with a good nutritionist.

    Christine

  9. #9
    ImStillMags Guest

    Default Re: Protein Combining

    On Jun 2, 7:21*am, Christine Dabney <artis...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
    > On Wed, 2 Jun 2010 06:59:21 -0700 (PDT), ImStillMags
    >
    > <sitara8...@gmail.com> wrote:
    > >On Jun 1, 11:24*pm, spop...@speedymail.org (Steve Pope) wrote:
    > >> A household member is instructed, for the next couple months,
    > >> to have a high intake of high-quality protein. *In
    > >> pondering what this means in terms of diet, it seems to me we
    > >> want to combine as many good protein sources as possible, so that
    > >> they complement each other.

    >
    > Steve,
    >
    > I personally would consult with a good nutritionist. *
    >
    > Christine


    I agree with Christine. When you said a household member was
    'instructed'.....was there any other guidance given?

  10. #10
    Steve Pope Guest

    Default Re: Protein Combining

    Serene Vannoy <[email protected]> wrote:

    >Steve Pope wrote:


    >> A household member is instructed, for the next couple months,
    >> to have a high intake of high-quality protein. In
    >> pondering what this means in terms of diet, it seems to me we
    >> want to combine as many good protein sources as possible, so that
    >> they complement each other.


    >It's really unnecessary to complement proteins. Really. Even Frankie
    >Lappe says so. The body doesn't build its protein from the food at one
    >meal in a discrete bundle. It's fine to space your food out over time
    >and not mash everything together.


    Thanks for pointing this out.

    I agree in general (and this is why I have a two-day cycle in
    my stated plan, rather than mashing it all together into
    each meal), however in the situation at hand there is a specific
    medical scenario in which poor outcomes are associated with inadequate
    amino acid availability specifically, and poor diet generally.
    So we're trying to hedge our bets here.

    For a healthy person's diet, protein combining is important but
    it's not clear over what time frame. Eating only an incomplete
    protein for many weeks is probably not good. Most amino acid
    deficiencies, in healthy people, take months to manifest.

    But in this situation there is a specific metabolic
    process (one that is not normally that important) that needs to
    be fed. Hence the high-protein diet instructions.


    Steve

  11. #11
    Steve Pope Guest

    Default Re: Protein Combining

    Christine Dabney <[email protected]> wrote:

    >On Wed, 2 Jun 2010 06:59:21 -0700 (PDT), ImStillMags


    >>On Jun 1, 11:24*pm, spop...@speedymail.org (Steve Pope) wrote:


    >>> A household member is instructed, for the next couple months,
    >>> to have a high intake of high-quality protein. *In
    >>> pondering what this means in terms of diet, it seems to me we
    >>> want to combine as many good protein sources as possible, so that
    >>> they complement each other.


    >Steve,


    >I personally would consult with a good nutritionist.


    Thanks.

    I think, for this situation, a nutritionist referral might
    be considered overkill. The consumer is supposed to know,
    or be able to figure out, what "high protein" means.

    But I defer any decisions to the patient, who is not myself.

    Steve

  12. #12
    [email protected] Guest

    Default Re: Protein Combining


    > I think, for this situation, a nutritionist referral might
    > be considered overkill. *The consumer is supposed to know,
    > or be able to figure out, what "high protein" means. *
    >
    > But I defer any decisions to the patient, who is not myself.
    >
    > Steve


    Well..my definition of high quality protein doesn't fit yours...so
    that is why I am thinking at least a question to a nutritionist might
    be in order. To me, high quality protein is meat, fish, poultry,
    dairy, and maybe tofu. Protein that is complete in itself, which is
    why it is considered high quality protein.

    Christine

  13. #13
    Janet Baraclough Guest

    Default Re: Protein Combining

    The message <[email protected]>
    from ImStillMags <[email protected]> contains these words:


    > Great sources of high quality protein


    #
    > * Tomato

    #
    > * Cucumber


    ????????.

    Janet

  14. #14
    Steve Pope Guest

    Default Re: Protein Combining

    [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:

    >> I think, for this situation, a nutritionist referral might
    >> be considered overkill. *The consumer is supposed to know,
    >> or be able to figure out, what "high protein" means. *


    >> But I defer any decisions to the patient, who is not myself.


    >Well..my definition of high quality protein doesn't fit yours...so
    >that is why I am thinking at least a question to a nutritionist might
    >be in order. To me, high quality protein is meat, fish, poultry,
    >dairy, and maybe tofu.


    (And eggs.)

    >Protein that is complete in itself, which is
    >why it is considered high quality protein.


    Yes, that is my basic definition of high quality protein also...
    protein that is complete by some scientifically accepted model,
    such as PDCAAS.

    What I'm exploring here is going beyond simple completeness
    as a criterion, by including a wider variety of sources.
    I do not know for certain there is any value in this. But
    it seems to me it can't hurt (so long as one hasn't deviated
    from the usual completeness criterion).

    Steve

  15. #15
    Steve Pope Guest

    Default Re: Protein Combining

    Janet Baraclough <[email protected]> wrote:

    >from ImStillMags <[email protected]> contains these words:


    >> Great sources of high quality protein


    >> * Tomato
    >> * Cucumber


    > ????????.


    It's true... if your metric is protein per calorie, certain
    vegetables are very high. Last time I looked at it, I
    found that tomato, lettuce and asparagus all ranked highly.

    The problem is you'd have to eat pounds and pounds of vegetables
    to get sufficient protein this way... you wouldn't get fat,
    but you'd spend all your time eating.

    Steve

  16. #16
    zxcvbob Guest

    Default Re: Protein Combining

    Steve Pope wrote:
    > A household member is instructed, for the next couple months,
    > to have a high intake of high-quality protein. In
    > pondering what this means in terms of diet, it seems to me we
    > want to combine as many good protein sources as possible, so that
    > they complement each other.
    >
    > So I put together the following list of eight protein sources
    > (from among things we normally eat or consider eating):
    >
    > 1. Meat
    > 2. Fish
    > 3. Soy
    > 4. Dairy
    > 5. Eggs
    > 6. Nuts
    > 7. Legumes (other than Soy)
    > 8. Whole Grains (of the kind with significant protein)
    >
    > My thinking is as follows: every day, we will include at
    > least five items off the list in our diet. And, in any two-day
    > interval, we must include all eight. (By "include" I mean,
    > at least 5, and preferably 10 or more grams of protein from that
    > source.)
    >
    > So for example, yesterday we ate meat, soy, dairy, nuts,
    > and grains. This meant that today, we were required to
    > eat fish, eggs, and legumes, as well as at least two others
    > off the list, which we did. We will continue forward in this
    > manner.
    >
    > Am I nuts or does this make any sense? I am somehow more
    > comfortable with this plan, than I would be with just saying,
    > "Well today we ate meat (or soy) and so that's our high quality
    > protein." I think there's some basis for enforcing a wide
    > variety, and not just counting amino acids.
    >
    > Although today's fish was canned tuna, we're probably going
    > to take advantage of the continued Oregon salmon availaibilty.
    >
    > This plan is going to get a little pricey; it means we're
    > consuming about twice the fish, and twice the meat, that we
    > normally would.
    >
    > Steve



    Sam's Club has 5# bags of chocolate/strawberry/vanilla flavored whey
    protein concentrate for $30. One scoop of the powder provides
    something like 23 grams of high-quality protein. Stir it into your
    morning fruit smoothie and that's over half your protein for the day
    for about 40˘.

    Add the protein last with the blender set to "Stir". Don't add it to
    the blender on "Liquify" or "Blend" at the beginning when you're
    mixing up the frozen berries, banana, juice, etc; it whips into a
    nasty meringue.

    Bob

  17. #17
    Steve Pope Guest

    Default Re: Protein Combining

    zxcvbob <[email protected]> wrote:

    >Sam's Club has 5# bags of chocolate/strawberry/vanilla flavored whey
    >protein concentrate for $30. One scoop of the powder provides
    >something like 23 grams of high-quality protein. Stir it into your
    >morning fruit smoothie and that's over half your protein for the day
    >for about 40˘.


    Thanks, Bob.

    (I've actually settled on Nature's Best "Isopure" whey protein
    as the product I like best; it is made from North American
    milk ingredients, and sometimes you can get it on sale.)


    Steve

  18. #18
    Janet Baraclough Guest

    Default Re: Protein Combining

    The message <hu5tcd$seb$[email protected]>
    from [email protected] (Steve Pope) contains these words:

    > Janet Baraclough <[email protected]> wrote:


    > >from ImStillMags <[email protected]> contains these words:


    > >> Great sources of high quality protein


    > >> * Tomato
    > >> * Cucumber


    > > ????????.


    > It's true... if your metric is protein per calorie, certain
    > vegetables are very high. Last time I looked at it, I
    > found that tomato, lettuce and asparagus all ranked highly.


    > The problem is you'd have to eat pounds and pounds of vegetables
    > to get sufficient protein this way... you wouldn't get fat,
    > but you'd spend all your time eating.


    Sounds like a deal to me :-)

    Janet

  19. #19
    Mark Thorson Guest

    Default Re: Protein Combining

    Steve Pope wrote:
    >
    > What I'm exploring here is going beyond simple completeness
    > as a criterion, by including a wider variety of sources.
    > I do not know for certain there is any value in this. But
    > it seems to me it can't hurt (so long as one hasn't deviated
    > from the usual completeness criterion).


    It won't hurt, unless one of you gets gout from
    eating so much protein.

    The people who need to combine different proteins
    are vegetarians, especially vegans. If you eat
    meat or eggs, one source is enough. There's
    no nutritional advantage to combining beef and
    chicken or pork and turkey. Pretty much all meats
    are complete proteins which don't need to be combined
    with anything. Cutting out the protein contribution
    from vegetable sources may improve how complete your
    protein intake is, because vegetables are not
    complete sources.

    Egg white is a very complete protein, with very
    little fat or nucleic acid. The latter would allow
    getting a higher protein level without risk of gout
    than would a muscle meat. Some body builders
    eat a lot of egg whites to satisfy their protein
    needs with minimal fat intake. They are also known
    to eat water-packed tuna and whey protein.

    Note that collagen is an incomplete protein, so
    gelatin is not a high-quality protein. It should be
    treated like a bean protein, which needs to be
    combined with other foods to have a balanced intake
    of amino acids. Or just avoid it altogether.

  20. #20
    Steve Pope Guest

    Default Re: Protein Combining

    Mark Thorson <[email protected]> wrote:

    >Steve Pope wrote:


    >> What I'm exploring here is going beyond simple completeness
    >> as a criterion, by including a wider variety of sources.
    >> I do not know for certain there is any value in this. But
    >> it seems to me it can't hurt (so long as one hasn't deviated
    >> from the usual completeness criterion).


    >It won't hurt, unless one of you gets gout from
    >eating so much protein.


    I agree with the first point and the second point (the latter
    of which hadn't occured to me, but it is not a looming problem).

    >The people who need to combine different proteins
    >are vegetarians, especially vegans. If you eat
    >meat or eggs, one source is enough. There's
    >no nutritional advantage to combining beef and
    >chicken or pork and turkey. Pretty much all meats
    >are complete proteins which don't need to be combined
    >with anything. Cutting out the protein contribution
    >from vegetable sources may improve how complete your
    >protein intake is, because vegetables are not
    >complete sources.


    It may, if the vegetable proteins are not sufficiently
    diverse.

    >Egg white is a very complete protein, with very
    >little fat or nucleic acid. The latter would allow
    >getting a higher protein level without risk of gout
    >than would a muscle meat. Some body builders
    >eat a lot of egg whites to satisfy their protein
    >needs with minimal fat intake. They are also known
    >to eat water-packed tuna and whey protein.


    This brings to mind another point:

    Has anyone seen canned skipjack tuna at all recently?
    I keep looking for it, but I have not found it for two
    years or so. It is the only canned tuna with low enough
    mercury that one can eat it frequently.

    Steve

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