Thread: Protein Combining

The message <hu4tf4$os0$[email protected]>
from [email protected] (Steve Pope) contains these words:

> This plan is going to get a little pricey; it means we're
> consuming about twice the fish, and twice the meat, that we
> normally would.

If you find you haven't enough appetite to eat meat that often: some snacks

Mashed sardines on buttered wholemeal toast. Hummus.
Milky drinks, cream. Plain soya yoghurt has a great texture and
slightly nutty taste.
Fruit/ yoghurt smoothies incorporating a raw egg
( children over 5 and adults in normal health can eat raw egg, trust
me). If you need the egg to be cooked, make egg custard.
Nutbakes with chopped mushrooms, chestnuts, and egg mixed in.
Cakes made with wholemeal flour, butter, eggs.
Home made icecream (dairy+eggs)

Janet

In article <hu4tf4$os0$[email protected]>,
[email protected] (Steve Pope) wrote:

> A household member is instructed, for the next couple months,
> to have a high intake of high-quality protein. In
> pondering what this means in terms of diet, it seems to me we
> want to combine as many good protein sources as possible, so that
> they complement each other.
>
> So I put together the following list of eight protein sources
> (from among things we normally eat or consider eating):
>
> 1. Meat
> 2. Fish
> 3. Soy
> 4. Dairy
> 5. Eggs
> 6. Nuts
> 7. Legumes (other than Soy)
> 8. Whole Grains (of the kind with significant protein)
>
> My thinking is as follows: every day, we will include at
> least five items off the list in our diet. And, in any two-day
> interval, we must include all eight. (By "include" I mean,
> at least 5, and preferably 10 or more grams of protein from that
> source.)
>
> So for example, yesterday we ate meat, soy, dairy, nuts,
> and grains. This meant that today, we were required to
> eat fish, eggs, and legumes, as well as at least two others
> off the list, which we did. We will continue forward in this
> manner.
>
> Am I nuts or does this make any sense? I am somehow more
> comfortable with this plan, than I would be with just saying,
> "Well today we ate meat (or soy) and so that's our high quality
> protein." I think there's some basis for enforcing a wide
> variety, and not just counting amino acids.
>
> Although today's fish was canned tuna, we're probably going
> to take advantage of the continued Oregon salmon availaibilty.
>
> This plan is going to get a little pricey; it means we're
> consuming about twice the fish, and twice the meat, that we
> normally would.
>
> Steve

Chicken, eggs and legumes give you quite a bit of leeway for recipes.
Don't forget the fiber (leafy greens) altho' the legumes will actually
supply a good deal of that...

IMHO protein-wise, grains contain too many calories with little protein
to mess with.

By meat, I presume you mean chicken, beef and pork?
There are fish sources that cost less than beef. :-)
--
Peace! Om

Web Albums: <http://picasaweb.google.com/OMPOmelet>
*Only Irish *coffee provides in a single glass all four *essential food groups: alcohol, caffeine, sugar *and fat. --Alex Levine

Omelet <[email protected]> wrote:

>Chicken, eggs and legumes give you quite a bit of leeway for recipes.
>Don't forget the fiber (leafy greens) altho' the legumes will actually
>supply a good deal of that...

Good point. One needs to not forget other nutriend when eating
high-protein.

>IMHO protein-wise, grains contain too many calories with little protein
>to mess with.

Yes; I'm not "counting" grains unless they are the higher protein
grains -- these are whole wheat (or spelt), wild rice, or quinoa.

(For example a tuna sandwich on whole wheat has 24 g of fish
protein, but also have 10 g of wheat protein which is still
significant.)

Corn or rice do not count as protein in my approximate figuring.

>By meat, I presume you mean chicken, beef and pork?
>There are fish sources that cost less than beef. :-)

Here, meat equals beef, pork or lamb; fish equals any seafood;
we buy chicken much less often but I think we would count it
along with meat. Haven't gotten that far yet.

Thanks. :-)

Steve

On Jun 1, 11:24*pm, spop...@speedymail.org (Steve Pope) wrote:
> A household member is instructed, for the next couple months,
> to have a high intake of high-quality protein. *In
> pondering what this means in terms of diet, it seems to me we
> want to combine as many good protein sources as possible, so that
> they complement each other.
>
> So I put together the following list of eight protein sources
> (from among things we normally eat or consider eating):
>
> 1. Meat
> 2. Fish
> 3. Soy
> 4. Dairy
> 5. Eggs
> 6. Nuts
> 7. Legumes (other than Soy)
> 8. Whole Grains (of the kind with significant protein)
>
> My thinking is as follows: every day, we will include at
> least five items off the list in our diet. *And, in any two-day
> interval, we must include all eight. *(By "include" I mean,
> at least 5, and preferably 10 or more grams of protein from that
> source.)
>
> So for example, yesterday we ate meat, soy, dairy, nuts,
> and grains. *This meant that today, we were required to
> eat fish, eggs, and legumes, as well as at least two others
> off the list, which we did. *We will continue forward in this
> manner.
>
> Am I nuts or does this make any sense? *I am somehow more
> comfortable with this plan, than I would be with just saying,
> "Well today we ate meat (or soy) and so that's our high quality
> protein." *I think there's some basis for enforcing a wide
> variety, and not just counting amino acids.
>
> Although today's fish was canned tuna, we're probably going
> to take advantage of the continued Oregon salmon availaibilty.
>
> This plan is going to get a little pricey; it means we're
> consuming about twice the fish, and twice the meat, that we
> normally would.
>
> Steve

You mentioned high quality protein. Don't forget that the list you
put up contains a lot of saturated fats.
There are other high quality protein sources especially in some fruits
and vegetables. Here's a good article.

High quality proteins are usually found in foods that are high in
nutrients and protein, low in saturated fat and cholesterol. Foods
high in saturated fat are known to increase the risk of
atherosclerosis and coronary heart disease. Switching to high quality
protein will help decrease your cholesterol levels and give your body
the necessary nutrients to heal itself. High quality protein is also
good for weight management because it helps slow down the digestion
process. This will help keep your blood sugar level constant which
prevents fatigue. Most people have been conditioned at an early age to
believe that beef, poultry and fish are the best sources of protein.
This is a misconception that can be harmful to people’s health. The
best sources of high quality protein are from fruits and vegetables.
Their proteins are easier to absorb, more stable, and contain little
or no cholesterol.

Great sources of high quality protein

* Corn
* Wheat
* Peanuts
* Tomato
* Wild Rice
* Squash
* Cucumber
* Green Beans
* Lentils
* Asparagus
* Brussels Sprouts
* Broccoli
* Spinach

Decent sources of protein

* Bass
* Chicken Breast (Skinless)
* Haddock
* Lobster
* Mackerel
* Salmon
* Trout
* Tuna Steak
* Turkey Breast

ImStillMags <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Jun 1, 11:24*pm, spop...@speedymail.org (Steve Pope) wrote:

>> 1. Meat
>> 2. Fish
>> 3. Soy
>> 4. Dairy
>> 5. Eggs
>> 6. Nuts
>> 7. Legumes (other than Soy)
>> 8. Whole Grains (of the kind with significant protein)

>You mentioned high quality protein. Don't forget that the list you
>put up contains a lot of saturated fats.
>There are other high quality protein sources especially in some fruits
>and vegetables. Here's a good article.

>High quality proteins are usually found in foods that are high in
>nutrients and protein, low in saturated fat and cholesterol. Foods
>high in saturated fat are known to increase the risk of
>atherosclerosis and coronary heart disease. Switching to high quality
>protein will help decrease your cholesterol levels and give your body
>the necessary nutrients to heal itself. High quality protein is also
>good for weight management because it helps slow down the digestion
>process. This will help keep your blood sugar level constant which
>prevents fatigue. Most people have been conditioned at an early age to
>believe that beef, poultry and fish are the best sources of protein.
>This is a misconception that can be harmful to people’s health. The
>best sources of high quality protein are from fruits and vegetables.
>Their proteins are easier to absorb, more stable, and contain little
>or no cholesterol.

>Great sources of high quality protein
>
> * Corn
> * Wheat
> * Peanuts
> * Tomato
> * Wild Rice
> * Squash
> * Cucumber
> * Green Beans
> * Lentils
> * Asparagus
> * Brussels Sprouts
> * Broccoli
> * Spinach
>
>Decent sources of protein
>
> * Bass
> * Chicken Breast (Skinless)
> * Haddock
> * Lobster
> * Mackerel
> * Salmon
> * Trout
> * Tuna Steak
> * Turkey Breast

Thanks. I agree with this, with a couple major omissions:
nonfat dairy products are also high quality protein (these
include nonfat yogurt, nonfat cottage cheese, and whey protein
isolate), and the same is true of de-fatted soy products
(these include tofu and soy isolatae -- soy powder and TVP).

Yes, asparagus is 25% protein calories. The problem is
eating enough of it to get those calories. We're talking
pounds of asparagus.

Your list did remind me of a fact I had somewhat forgotten,
which is on the meat/poultry spectrum, the only really low-fat
proteins are chicken and turkey breast.

Steve

Steve Pope wrote:
> A household member is instructed, for the next couple months,
> to have a high intake of high-quality protein. In
> pondering what this means in terms of diet, it seems to me we
> want to combine as many good protein sources as possible, so that
> they complement each other.

It's really unnecessary to complement proteins. Really. Even Frankie
Lappe says so. The body doesn't build its protein from the food at one
meal in a discrete bundle. It's fine to space your food out over time
and not mash everything together.

Serene
--
"I tend to come down on the side of autonomy. Once people are grown up,
I believe they have the right to go to hell in the handbasket of their
choosing." -- Pat Kight, on alt.polyamory

On Wed, 2 Jun 2010 06:59:21 -0700 (PDT), ImStillMags
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Jun 1, 11:24*pm, spop...@speedymail.org (Steve Pope) wrote:
>> A household member is instructed, for the next couple months,
>> to have a high intake of high-quality protein. *In
>> pondering what this means in terms of diet, it seems to me we
>> want to combine as many good protein sources as possible, so that
>> they complement each other.

Steve,

I personally would consult with a good nutritionist.

Christine

On Jun 2, 7:21*am, Christine Dabney <artis...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 2 Jun 2010 06:59:21 -0700 (PDT), ImStillMags
>
> <sitara8...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On Jun 1, 11:24*pm, spop...@speedymail.org (Steve Pope) wrote:
> >> A household member is instructed, for the next couple months,
> >> to have a high intake of high-quality protein. *In
> >> pondering what this means in terms of diet, it seems to me we
> >> want to combine as many good protein sources as possible, so that
> >> they complement each other.
>
> Steve,
>
> I personally would consult with a good nutritionist. *
>
> Christine

I agree with Christine. When you said a household member was
'instructed'.....was there any other guidance given?

Serene Vannoy <[email protected]> wrote:

>Steve Pope wrote:

>> A household member is instructed, for the next couple months,
>> to have a high intake of high-quality protein. In
>> pondering what this means in terms of diet, it seems to me we
>> want to combine as many good protein sources as possible, so that
>> they complement each other.

>It's really unnecessary to complement proteins. Really. Even Frankie
>Lappe says so. The body doesn't build its protein from the food at one
>meal in a discrete bundle. It's fine to space your food out over time
>and not mash everything together.

Thanks for pointing this out.

I agree in general (and this is why I have a two-day cycle in
my stated plan, rather than mashing it all together into
each meal), however in the situation at hand there is a specific
medical scenario in which poor outcomes are associated with inadequate
amino acid availability specifically, and poor diet generally.
So we're trying to hedge our bets here.

For a healthy person's diet, protein combining is important but
it's not clear over what time frame. Eating only an incomplete
protein for many weeks is probably not good. Most amino acid
deficiencies, in healthy people, take months to manifest.

But in this situation there is a specific metabolic
process (one that is not normally that important) that needs to
be fed. Hence the high-protein diet instructions.


Steve

Christine Dabney <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Wed, 2 Jun 2010 06:59:21 -0700 (PDT), ImStillMags

>>On Jun 1, 11:24*pm, spop...@speedymail.org (Steve Pope) wrote:

>>> A household member is instructed, for the next couple months,
>>> to have a high intake of high-quality protein. *In
>>> pondering what this means in terms of diet, it seems to me we
>>> want to combine as many good protein sources as possible, so that
>>> they complement each other.

>Steve,

>I personally would consult with a good nutritionist.

Thanks.

I think, for this situation, a nutritionist referral might
be considered overkill. The consumer is supposed to know,
or be able to figure out, what "high protein" means.

But I defer any decisions to the patient, who is not myself.

Steve

> I think, for this situation, a nutritionist referral might
> be considered overkill. *The consumer is supposed to know,
> or be able to figure out, what "high protein" means. *
>
> But I defer any decisions to the patient, who is not myself.
>
> Steve

Well..my definition of high quality protein doesn't fit yours...so
that is why I am thinking at least a question to a nutritionist might
be in order. To me, high quality protein is meat, fish, poultry,
dairy, and maybe tofu. Protein that is complete in itself, which is
why it is considered high quality protein.

Christine

The message <[email protected]>
from ImStillMags <[email protected]> contains these words:


> Great sources of high quality protein

#
> * Tomato
#
> * Cucumber

????????.

Janet

[email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:

>> I think, for this situation, a nutritionist referral might
>> be considered overkill. *The consumer is supposed to know,
>> or be able to figure out, what "high protein" means. *

>> But I defer any decisions to the patient, who is not myself.

>Well..my definition of high quality protein doesn't fit yours...so
>that is why I am thinking at least a question to a nutritionist might
>be in order. To me, high quality protein is meat, fish, poultry,
>dairy, and maybe tofu.

(And eggs.)

>Protein that is complete in itself, which is
>why it is considered high quality protein.

Yes, that is my basic definition of high quality protein also...
protein that is complete by some scientifically accepted model,
such as PDCAAS.

What I'm exploring here is going beyond simple completeness
as a criterion, by including a wider variety of sources.
I do not know for certain there is any value in this. But
it seems to me it can't hurt (so long as one hasn't deviated
from the usual completeness criterion).

Steve

Janet Baraclough <[email protected]> wrote:

>from ImStillMags <[email protected]> contains these words:

>> Great sources of high quality protein

>> * Tomato
>> * Cucumber

> ????????.

It's true... if your metric is protein per calorie, certain
vegetables are very high. Last time I looked at it, I
found that tomato, lettuce and asparagus all ranked highly.

The problem is you'd have to eat pounds and pounds of vegetables
to get sufficient protein this way... you wouldn't get fat,
but you'd spend all your time eating.

Steve

Steve Pope wrote:
> A household member is instructed, for the next couple months,
> to have a high intake of high-quality protein. In
> pondering what this means in terms of diet, it seems to me we
> want to combine as many good protein sources as possible, so that
> they complement each other.
>
> So I put together the following list of eight protein sources
> (from among things we normally eat or consider eating):
>
> 1. Meat
> 2. Fish
> 3. Soy
> 4. Dairy
> 5. Eggs
> 6. Nuts
> 7. Legumes (other than Soy)
> 8. Whole Grains (of the kind with significant protein)
>
> My thinking is as follows: every day, we will include at
> least five items off the list in our diet. And, in any two-day
> interval, we must include all eight. (By "include" I mean,
> at least 5, and preferably 10 or more grams of protein from that
> source.)
>
> So for example, yesterday we ate meat, soy, dairy, nuts,
> and grains. This meant that today, we were required to
> eat fish, eggs, and legumes, as well as at least two others
> off the list, which we did. We will continue forward in this
> manner.
>
> Am I nuts or does this make any sense? I am somehow more
> comfortable with this plan, than I would be with just saying,
> "Well today we ate meat (or soy) and so that's our high quality
> protein." I think there's some basis for enforcing a wide
> variety, and not just counting amino acids.
>
> Although today's fish was canned tuna, we're probably going
> to take advantage of the continued Oregon salmon availaibilty.
>
> This plan is going to get a little pricey; it means we're
> consuming about twice the fish, and twice the meat, that we
> normally would.
>
> Steve


Sam's Club has 5# bags of chocolate/strawberry/vanilla flavored whey
protein concentrate for $30. One scoop of the powder provides
something like 23 grams of high-quality protein. Stir it into your
morning fruit smoothie and that's over half your protein for the day
for about 40¢.

Add the protein last with the blender set to "Stir". Don't add it to
the blender on "Liquify" or "Blend" at the beginning when you're
mixing up the frozen berries, banana, juice, etc; it whips into a
nasty meringue.

Bob

zxcvbob <[email protected]> wrote:

>Sam's Club has 5# bags of chocolate/strawberry/vanilla flavored whey
>protein concentrate for $30. One scoop of the powder provides
>something like 23 grams of high-quality protein. Stir it into your
>morning fruit smoothie and that's over half your protein for the day
>for about 40¢.

Thanks, Bob.

(I've actually settled on Nature's Best "Isopure" whey protein
as the product I like best; it is made from North American
milk ingredients, and sometimes you can get it on sale.)


Steve

The message <hu5tcd$seb$[email protected]>
from [email protected] (Steve Pope) contains these words:

> Janet Baraclough <[email protected]> wrote:

> >from ImStillMags <[email protected]> contains these words:

> >> Great sources of high quality protein

> >> * Tomato
> >> * Cucumber

> > ????????.

> It's true... if your metric is protein per calorie, certain
> vegetables are very high. Last time I looked at it, I
> found that tomato, lettuce and asparagus all ranked highly.

> The problem is you'd have to eat pounds and pounds of vegetables
> to get sufficient protein this way... you wouldn't get fat,
> but you'd spend all your time eating.

Sounds like a deal to me :-)

Janet

Steve Pope wrote:
>
> What I'm exploring here is going beyond simple completeness
> as a criterion, by including a wider variety of sources.
> I do not know for certain there is any value in this. But
> it seems to me it can't hurt (so long as one hasn't deviated
> from the usual completeness criterion).

It won't hurt, unless one of you gets gout from
eating so much protein.

The people who need to combine different proteins
are vegetarians, especially vegans. If you eat
meat or eggs, one source is enough. There's
no nutritional advantage to combining beef and
chicken or pork and turkey. Pretty much all meats
are complete proteins which don't need to be combined
with anything. Cutting out the protein contribution
from vegetable sources may improve how complete your
protein intake is, because vegetables are not
complete sources.

Egg white is a very complete protein, with very
little fat or nucleic acid. The latter would allow
getting a higher protein level without risk of gout
than would a muscle meat. Some body builders
eat a lot of egg whites to satisfy their protein
needs with minimal fat intake. They are also known
to eat water-packed tuna and whey protein.

Note that collagen is an incomplete protein, so
gelatin is not a high-quality protein. It should be
treated like a bean protein, which needs to be
combined with other foods to have a balanced intake
of amino acids. Or just avoid it altogether.

Mark Thorson <[email protected]> wrote:

>Steve Pope wrote:

>> What I'm exploring here is going beyond simple completeness
>> as a criterion, by including a wider variety of sources.
>> I do not know for certain there is any value in this. But
>> it seems to me it can't hurt (so long as one hasn't deviated
>> from the usual completeness criterion).

>It won't hurt, unless one of you gets gout from
>eating so much protein.

I agree with the first point and the second point (the latter
of which hadn't occured to me, but it is not a looming problem).

>The people who need to combine different proteins
>are vegetarians, especially vegans. If you eat
>meat or eggs, one source is enough. There's
>no nutritional advantage to combining beef and
>chicken or pork and turkey. Pretty much all meats
>are complete proteins which don't need to be combined
>with anything. Cutting out the protein contribution
>from vegetable sources may improve how complete your
>protein intake is, because vegetables are not
>complete sources.

It may, if the vegetable proteins are not sufficiently
diverse.

>Egg white is a very complete protein, with very
>little fat or nucleic acid. The latter would allow
>getting a higher protein level without risk of gout
>than would a muscle meat. Some body builders
>eat a lot of egg whites to satisfy their protein
>needs with minimal fat intake. They are also known
>to eat water-packed tuna and whey protein.

This brings to mind another point:

Has anyone seen canned skipjack tuna at all recently?
I keep looking for it, but I have not found it for two
years or so. It is the only canned tuna with low enough
mercury that one can eat it frequently.

Steve