Thread: pies beyond pastry

On Jan 19, 7:33*am, Janet <H...@invalid.net> wrote:
> My fruit pies contain just, fresh raw fruit, sugar, sometimes spices or
> cinnamon etc. (afaik this is traditional in the UK) When cooked the pie
> filling is moist but not gushing and the bottom pastry isn't soggy. We
> usually serve fruit pie with custard, cream, yoghurt or icecream.
>
> What's with the cornflour, arrow root or gel many of you mention in US
> fruit pies? Are you also adding water or juice to the filling?
>
> * *Janet

What kinds of fruit? Berries (blackberries, for example) are very
juicy and would release enough juice to sog up the pastry.
Apples, not so much.

Cindy Hamilton

On Wed, 19 Jan 2011 12:33:03 -0000, Janet <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>My fruit pies contain just, fresh raw fruit, sugar, sometimes spices or
>cinnamon etc. (afaik this is traditional in the UK) When cooked the pie
>filling is moist but not gushing and the bottom pastry isn't soggy. We
>usually serve fruit pie with custard, cream, yoghurt or icecream.

That's what I would call a *good* pie. I even pass on the creams.
[every 5 yrs or so I'll have a chunk of good cheddar with an apple
pie- but otherwise I like my pies nekkid] I just want an excuse to
eat a bit of crust with my fruit.

I wonder how often it is the fruit. What kind of apples do you use?
My favorites were the russets that grew in the back yard when I was a
kid. Rock hard, even after hit by frost-- by the time they were
cooked they taste and feel like a fresh-picked 'table apple'.

Granny Smith's are the go-to apple for most folks, but I haven't seen
a really good Granny in a grocery store in forever- you need to get
them from the orchard.

>
>What's with the cornflour, arrow root or gel many of you mention in US
>fruit pies? Are you also adding water or juice to the filling?
>

I rarely find a fruit pie in the US that isn't *way* too runny for me.
[and I don't cook my own] The one's I have seen, lard crust and
all, seem to be in tiny rural local diners where somebody in town
makes pies for them. It just occurred to me that both places with
really memorable pies that come to mind were within a few miles of
Canada- one in Maine & one in NY- so maybe Canadians like/make them
the UK way?

Now you've got me thinking about the one in Maine. A blueberry 'deep
dish' pie with a perfect crust and blueberries that seemed to be just
warmed up in the crust. I did have the scoop of fresh-churned ice
cream with that one. I can taste it right now-- and that was 1984!

The canned 'pie filling' that I've looked at is about 50% fruit & 50%
paste. Most times artificial color and flavor has been added.
and sugar . . .we must have our sugar!

Jim

In article <c95242b5-9497-4867-8a6c-be117b5d6f97
@q18g2000vbk.googlegroups.com>, [email protected] says...
>
> On Jan 19, 7:33*am, Janet <H...@invalid.net> wrote:
> > My fruit pies contain just, fresh raw fruit, sugar, sometimes spices or
> > cinnamon etc. (afaik this is traditional in the UK) When cooked the pie
> > filling is moist but not gushing and the bottom pastry isn't soggy. We
> > usually serve fruit pie with custard, cream, yoghurt or icecream.
> >
> > What's with the cornflour, arrow root or gel many of you mention in US
> > fruit pies? Are you also adding water or juice to the filling?
> >
> > * *Janet
>
> What kinds of fruit?

Apple, apple and blackberry (wild, local), rhubarb, gooseberry, rhubarb
and strawberry, pears, whinberries/blaeberies (wild local berry)

> Berries (blackberries, for example) are very
> juicy and would release enough juice to sog up the pastry.
> Apples, not so much.

we don't much like blackberries as a lone filling in pie, I always
mix them with apple.

Janet.

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
>
> On Wed, 19 Jan 2011 12:33:03 -0000, Janet <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >My fruit pies contain just, fresh raw fruit, sugar, sometimes spices or
> >cinnamon etc. (afaik this is traditional in the UK) When cooked the pie
> >filling is moist but not gushing and the bottom pastry isn't soggy. We
> >usually serve fruit pie with custard, cream, yoghurt or icecream.
>
> That's what I would call a *good* pie. I even pass on the creams.
> [every 5 yrs or so I'll have a chunk of good cheddar with an apple
> pie- but otherwise I like my pies nekkid] I just want an excuse to
> eat a bit of crust with my fruit.
>
> I wonder how often it is the fruit. What kind of apples do you use?

Bramley. It's what Brits call a "cooking apple"; a large green hard
apple too tart/acid to eat raw on its own like other apples. As kids we
use to dip raw slices in sugar to eat, as my mother was making pie. She
loved cheese with apple pie btw.

> My favorites were the russets that grew in the back yard when I was a
> kid. Rock hard, even after hit by frost-- by the time they were
> cooked they taste and feel like a fresh-picked 'table apple'.
>
> Granny Smith's are the go-to apple for most folks, but I haven't seen
> a really good Granny in a grocery store in forever- you need to get
> them from the orchard.
>
> >
> >What's with the cornflour, arrow root or gel many of you mention in US
> >fruit pies? Are you also adding water or juice to the filling?
> >
>
> I rarely find a fruit pie in the US that isn't *way* too runny for me.
> [and I don't cook my own] The one's I have seen, lard crust and
> all, seem to be in tiny rural local diners where somebody in town
> makes pies for them. It just occurred to me that both places with
> really memorable pies that come to mind were within a few miles of
> Canada- one in Maine & one in NY- so maybe Canadians like/make them
> the UK way?

There are a lot of emigrated Scots in Canada, and Scots are big on apple
pie.
>
> Now you've got me thinking about the one in Maine. A blueberry 'deep
> dish' pie with a perfect crust and blueberries that seemed to be just
> warmed up in the crust. I did have the scoop of fresh-churned ice
> cream with that one. I can taste it right now-- and that was 1984!

sounds good
>
> The canned 'pie filling' that I've looked at is about 50% fruit & 50%
> paste. Most times artificial color and flavor has been added.
> and sugar . . .we must have our sugar!

:-( I never eat canned- filling pies.

Janet.

On Wed 19 Jan 2011 05:33:03a, Janet told us...

>
>
> My fruit pies contain just, fresh raw fruit, sugar, sometimes
> spices or cinnamon etc. (afaik this is traditional in the UK) When
> cooked the pie filling is moist but not gushing and the bottom
> pastry isn't soggy. We usually serve fruit pie with custard,
> cream, yoghurt or icecream.
>
> What's with the cornflour, arrow root or gel many of you mention
> in US fruit pies? Are you also adding water or juice to the
> filling?
>
> Janet

Janet, that's probably because it's rare to find a fruit pie recipe
in an American cookbook that doesn't call for some type of thickener,
either flour, cornstarch, or tapioca. I haven't seen many pie
recipes that call for arrowroot.

I think the vast majority of Americans expect fruit pies to have
amount of thickening in the fruit juices, albeith, many bakers often
overdo it, especially commercial bakeries.

I generally use a bit of flour mixed with the sugar when making an
apple pie, and either cornstarch or tapioca for berry pies, but I
hasten to add that my fruit pies do not end up with a gelled or pasty
filling.

I have tried baking apple pie with no added starch. The apples were
tender and the pastry properly baked, but the juices were much too
watery for my taste. Perhaps it's the variety apple used. I do know
that the UK and the US do not share the same variety of apples.

I wouldn't consider baking a berry pie without some amount of starch.
The filling would be more like fruit soup than pie.

Then, again, perhaps it's the difference in expectations that Brits
and Americans have.

--

~~ If there's a nit to pick, some nitwit will pick it. ~~

~~ A mind is a terrible thing to lose. ~~

************************************************** ********

Wayne Boatwright

In article <[email protected] 71>,
[email protected] says...
>
> On Wed 19 Jan 2011 05:33:03a, Janet told us...
>
> >
> >
> > My fruit pies contain just, fresh raw fruit, sugar, sometimes
> > spices or cinnamon etc. (afaik this is traditional in the UK) When
> > cooked the pie filling is moist but not gushing and the bottom
> > pastry isn't soggy. We usually serve fruit pie with custard,
> > cream, yoghurt or icecream.
> >
> > What's with the cornflour, arrow root or gel many of you mention
> > in US fruit pies? Are you also adding water or juice to the
> > filling?
> >
> > Janet
>
> Janet, that's probably because it's rare to find a fruit pie recipe
> in an American cookbook that doesn't call for some type of thickener,
> either flour, cornstarch, or tapioca.

I know, but I want to know why you use thickener and how your pies turn
out with it (because ours don't have thickener and are not runny). Have
you cooked the fruit before filling the pie, so it's running juice?

I have noticed some US recipes that cook pies for what seems to me, a
very long time.

Janet

On Jan 19, 7:07*am, Janet <H...@invalid.net> wrote:
> In article <Xns9E725039F103Cwayneboatwrightxg...@198.186.190. 71>,
> wayneboatwri...@xgmail.com says...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Wed 19 Jan 2011 05:33:03a, Janet told us...
>
> > > My fruit pies contain just, fresh raw fruit, sugar, sometimes
> > > spices or cinnamon etc. (afaik this is traditional in the UK) When
> > > cooked the pie filling is moist but not gushing and the bottom
> > > pastry isn't soggy. We usually serve fruit pie with custard,
> > > cream, yoghurt or icecream.
>
> > > What's with the cornflour, arrow root or gel many of you mention
> > > in US fruit pies? Are you also adding water or juice to the
> > > filling?
>
> > > * *Janet
>
> > Janet, that's probably because it's rare to find a fruit pie recipe
> > in an American cookbook that doesn't call for some type of thickener,
> > either flour, cornstarch, or tapioca.
>
> *I know, but I want to know why you use thickener and how your pies turn
> out with it (because ours don't have thickener and are not runny). Have
> you cooked the fruit before filling the pie, so it's running juice?
>
> * *I have noticed some US recipes that cook pies for what seems to me, a
> very long time.
>
> * Janet

I think it depends on the type of apple you use in an apple pie. Some
apples are 'mealier' and don't have so much juice. Some of the
crisp/sweet varieties are very juicy and really release a lot of juice
into the pie.

I like braeburns or johnagolds in apple pie....I don't particularly
like granny smith apples....I toss the sliced apples with cinnamon,
sugar and a bit of flour before piling them into the crust and the bit
of flour makes the juices into
just enough of a syrup to hold the fruit together perfectly.

On Wed 19 Jan 2011 08:07:11a, Janet told us...

> In article <[email protected] 71>,
> [email protected] says...
>>
>> On Wed 19 Jan 2011 05:33:03a, Janet told us...
>>
>> >
>> >
>> > My fruit pies contain just, fresh raw fruit, sugar, sometimes
>> > spices or cinnamon etc. (afaik this is traditional in the UK)
>> > When cooked the pie filling is moist but not gushing and the
>> > bottom pastry isn't soggy. We usually serve fruit pie with
>> > custard, cream, yoghurt or icecream.
>> >
>> > What's with the cornflour, arrow root or gel many of you
>> > mention in US fruit pies? Are you also adding water or juice to
>> > the filling?
>> >
>> > Janet
>>
>> Janet, that's probably because it's rare to find a fruit pie
>> recipe in an American cookbook that doesn't call for some type of
>> thickener, either flour, cornstarch, or tapioca.
>
> I know, but I want to know why you use thickener and how your
> pies turn
> out with it (because ours don't have thickener and are not runny).
> Have you cooked the fruit before filling the pie, so it's running
> juice?

The only fruit where I cook the fruit before filling is made from
canned sour cherries, using some of the juice from the canned
cheries, sugar, and cornstarch. It's actually thickened before
putting in the pastry. It's often difficult to find fresh sour
chdrries where I live. All other fruits are used raw or frozen,
tossed with sugar and some amout of starch blended in. No liquid is
added. The fruit, sugar, starch, and flavorings are relatively dry
when turned into the pastry. This would include apple, rhubarb, and
various beries.

> I have noticed some US recipes that cook pies for what seems to
> me, a
> very long time.

I generally make large pies; e.g., a 1-1/2 to 2 inches deep deep 10
inch pie plate. They do take longer to cook in order for the fruit
to be tender and pastry properly baked. On average, such a pie would
bake from an hour and ten minutes to an hour and a half. A thinner
smaller pie obviously doesn't take as long, perhaps 50-60 minutes.

Mu indicators for doneness is having the fruit filling bubbling and
the pastry nicely browned.

HTH


--

~~ If there's a nit to pick, some nitwit will pick it. ~~

~~ A mind is a terrible thing to lose. ~~

************************************************** ********

Wayne Boatwright

On 2011-01-19, Jim Elbrecht <[email protected]> wrote:

> I rarely find a fruit pie in the US that isn't *way* too runny for me.

That's the reason for the thickeners, I would imagine. My first, a
fresh blackberry pie, called for flour. It tasted great, didn't run,
but looked like Hell, the filling all cloudy and dull.

> Now you've got me thinking about the one in Maine. A blueberry 'deep
> dish' pie with a perfect crust and blueberries that seemed to be just
> warmed up in the crust. I did have the scoop of fresh-churned ice
> cream with that one. I can taste it right now-- and that was 1984!

Make your own! My 2nd pie was fresh blueberry. I've never been a
blueberry fan cuz I always considered it a rather bland berry, not
having much flavor. Silly me. My pie, despite the crust crisis, came
out excellent. I used 1 qt of fresh blueberries. The tapioca
provided just enough thickener to keep the finished pie from being
"way to runny" and it didn't intrude on the subtle blueberry flavor
one bit. If I can make a good pie, anyone can.

nb

On 2011-01-19, Janet <[email protected]> wrote:

> Bramley. It's what Brits call a "cooking apple"; a large green hard
> apple too tart/acid to eat raw on its own like other apples.

Sounds like a crab apple, a smallish very tart apple that most folks
usually ignore or just use for making jelly. Sounds like it might
make a good pie if I could find them. I grew up with a huge crab
apple tree in the yard and learned to like them, raw, but I've never
seen them in a store.

> :-( I never eat canned- filling pies.

I never knew there was such a thing as canned pie filling till I saw a
can on the belt in the check-out line, a few days back. Cherry pie
filling. While I can extoll the virtues of canned goods at length, I
can't see any use as a pie filling.

nb

On 19/01/2011 7:33 AM, Janet wrote:
>
>
> My fruit pies contain just, fresh raw fruit, sugar, sometimes spices or
> cinnamon etc. (afaik this is traditional in the UK) When cooked the pie
> filling is moist but not gushing and the bottom pastry isn't soggy. We
> usually serve fruit pie with custard, cream, yoghurt or icecream.
>
> What's with the cornflour, arrow root or gel many of you mention in US
> fruit pies? Are you also adding water or juice to the filling.

A couple tablespoons of flour, corn starch or minute tapioca mixed in
with the sugar and fruit thickens the juice. No water or other liquids.

Janet wrote:
> In article <c95242b5-9497-4867-8a6c-be117b5d6f97
> @q18g2000vbk.googlegroups.com>, [email protected] says...
>>
>> On Jan 19, 7:33 am, Janet <H...@invalid.net> wrote:
>>> My fruit pies contain just, fresh raw fruit, sugar, sometimes
>>> spices or cinnamon etc. (afaik this is traditional in the UK) When
>>> cooked the pie filling is moist but not gushing and the bottom
>>> pastry isn't soggy. We usually serve fruit pie with custard,
>>> cream,
>>> yoghurt or icecream.
>>>
>>> What's with the cornflour, arrow root or gel many of you mention
>>> in
>>> US fruit pies? Are you also adding water or juice to the filling?
>>>
>>> Janet
>>
>> What kinds of fruit?
>
> Apple, apple and blackberry (wild, local), rhubarb, gooseberry,
> rhubarb and strawberry, pears, whinberries/blaeberies (wild local
> berry)
>
>> Berries (blackberries, for example) are very
>> juicy and would release enough juice to sog up the pastry.
>> Apples, not so much.
>
> we don't much like blackberries as a lone filling in pie, I
> always
> mix them with apple.
>
> Janet.

Interesting since, when making blackberry jam, some apple is included
in order to make the jam gel. Blackberries have no natural thickener.
Possibly that works in pies as well.

Dora

On 19/01/2011 11:14 AM, notbob wrote:

> Make your own! My 2nd pie was fresh blueberry. I've never been a
> blueberry fan cuz I always considered it a rather bland berry, not
> having much flavor. Silly me. My pie, despite the crust crisis, came
> out excellent. I used 1 qt of fresh blueberries. The tapioca
> provided just enough thickener to keep the finished pie from being
> "way to runny" and it didn't intrude on the subtle blueberry flavor
> one bit. If I can make a good pie, anyone can.




Blueberries are bland? The big commercially grown blueberries are
relatively bland. The small northern blueberries are packed with
flavour. In fact, one of the reasons I don't bother with blueberry pie
is that they are just too berry, like any other berry pie. I figure
that a little berry goes a long way.

Janet wrote:
>
> Bramley. It's what Brits call a "cooking apple"; a large green hard
> apple too tart/acid to eat raw on its own like other apples.

Granny Smiths in the US are similar to a Bramley - green, very tart
and crisp. Also known as a cooking apple.

Wayne Boatwright wrote:
> On Wed 19 Jan 2011 08:07:11a, Janet told us...
>
>> In article <[email protected] 71>,
>> [email protected] says...
>>> On Wed 19 Jan 2011 05:33:03a, Janet told us...
>>>
>>>>
>>>> My fruit pies contain just, fresh raw fruit, sugar, sometimes
>>>> spices or cinnamon etc. (afaik this is traditional in the UK)
>>>> When cooked the pie filling is moist but not gushing and the
>>>> bottom pastry isn't soggy. We usually serve fruit pie with
>>>> custard, cream, yoghurt or icecream.
>>>>
>>>> What's with the cornflour, arrow root or gel many of you
>>>> mention in US fruit pies? Are you also adding water or juice to
>>>> the filling?
>>>>
>>>> Janet
>>> Janet, that's probably because it's rare to find a fruit pie
>>> recipe in an American cookbook that doesn't call for some type of
>>> thickener, either flour, cornstarch, or tapioca.
>> I know, but I want to know why you use thickener and how your
>> pies turn
>> out with it (because ours don't have thickener and are not runny).
>> Have you cooked the fruit before filling the pie, so it's running
>> juice?
>
> The only fruit where I cook the fruit before filling is made from
> canned sour cherries, using some of the juice from the canned
> cheries, sugar, and cornstarch. It's actually thickened before
> putting in the pastry. It's often difficult to find fresh sour
> chdrries where I live. All other fruits are used raw or frozen,
> tossed with sugar and some amout of starch blended in. No liquid is
> added. The fruit, sugar, starch, and flavorings are relatively dry
> when turned into the pastry. This would include apple, rhubarb, and
> various beries.
>
>> I have noticed some US recipes that cook pies for what seems to
>> me, a
>> very long time.
>
> I generally make large pies; e.g., a 1-1/2 to 2 inches deep deep 10
> inch pie plate. They do take longer to cook in order for the fruit
> to be tender and pastry properly baked. On average, such a pie would
> bake from an hour and ten minutes to an hour and a half. A thinner
> smaller pie obviously doesn't take as long, perhaps 50-60 minutes.
>
> Mu indicators for doneness is having the fruit filling bubbling and
> the pastry nicely browned.
>
> HTH
>
>
Ditto re that last part.

I had an odd idea. What if one used both fresh and dried fruit?
I wonder whether with some tinkering the dried fruit would absorb
the excess liquid?

--
Jean B.

On 2011-01-19, Dave Smith <[email protected]> wrote:

> Blueberries are bland? The big commercially grown blueberries are
> relatively bland.

Since that's the only kind I can get, yes, they are reletively bland.

> The small northern blueberries are packed with
> flavour.

Lucky you. Send me some.

nb

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]d
says...
>
> On 2011-01-19, Janet <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Bramley. It's what Brits call a "cooking apple"; a large green hard
> > apple too tart/acid to eat raw on its own like other apples.
>
> Sounds like a crab apple, a smallish very tart apple that most folks
> usually ignore or just use for making jelly.

Nothing like (we have crab apples too; for jelly).

> > :-( I never eat canned- filling pies.
>
> I never knew there was such a thing as canned pie filling till I saw a
> can on the belt in the check-out line, a few days back. Cherry pie
> filling. While I can extoll the virtues of canned goods at length, I
> can't see any use as a pie filling.

I can't speak for the USA but certainly in the UK, there are a LOT of
restaurants and pubs selling "made in our kitchen" sweet and savoury
pies ...assembled from commercial canned filling and ready made
pastry:-(

Janet.

notbob <[email protected]> wrote:

>On 2011-01-19, Janet <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Bramley. It's what Brits call a "cooking apple"; a large green hard
>> apple too tart/acid to eat raw on its own like other apples.
>
>Sounds like a crab apple, a smallish very tart apple that most folks
>usually ignore or just use for making jelly. Sounds like it might
>make a good pie if I could find them. I grew up with a huge crab
>apple tree in the yard and learned to like them, raw, but I've never
>seen them in a store.
>

Not small! It is a new breed for me, so I wiki'd them
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bramley_(apple)
"The apples are very large, two or three times the weight of a typical
dessert apple such as a Granny Smith. "

Really? I think Granny Smiths run about 10ounces. A 30oz
apple?

>> :-( I never eat canned- filling pies.
>
>I never knew there was such a thing as canned pie filling till I saw a
>can on the belt in the check-out line, a few days back. Cherry pie
>filling. While I can extoll the virtues of canned goods at length, I
>can't see any use as a pie filling.

I made some kind of bar cookie with it, if I remember. Graham crust,
some pudding, and the 'filling' as topping. It was better than a
sharp stick in the eye--- but that pie filling is the epitome of
'processed food'.

Jim

In article <[email protected] 14>,
[email protected] says...
>
> On Wed 19 Jan 2011 08:07:11a, Janet told us...
>
> > In article <[email protected] 71>,
> > [email protected] says...
>
> > I have noticed some US recipes that cook pies for what seems to
> > me, a
> > very long time.
>
> I generally make large pies; e.g., a 1-1/2 to 2 inches deep deep 10
> inch pie plate. They do take longer to cook in order for the fruit
> to be tender and pastry properly baked. On average, such a pie would
> bake from an hour and ten minutes to an hour and a half.

That's what I mean! This is very strange.

I make pies the same size as yours. I cook them in a hot oven for 35
minutes; check and turn them and give them another 10 or 15 mins.
50 mins max and perfectly done.

Janet.