Thread: Meal Progression Question

On Fri, 20 Nov 2009 01:57:33 -0800, "Bob Terwilliger"
<virtualgoth@die_spammer.biz> wrote:


>As you can see, I added garbanzo-flour fritters in there, because serving
>the squash by itself as a separate course seems kind of weak to me. The
>garbanzo-flour fritters are really good, but does adding them to the menu
>just for the sake of punching up the squash course really constitute an
>IMPROVEMENT to the menu? Or should I do the "USA Standard" thing of moving
>the salad to the beginning and serving the cranberry intermezzo just before
>dessert?
>
>Bob

Okay, why do you feel that squash as a separate course is weak? The
Italians don't think of vegetables as a separate course as weak...they
see it as a entity on it's own..and very strong. I personally would
love the squash to be highlighted as a course on it's own.

The fritters seem like overkill to me..like a filler. No..not an
improvement.

Remember..simple is not always bad. Sometimes you can overdo things,
and it is not always to the betterment of the dinner.

Christine
--
http://nightstirrings.blogspot.com

Christine wrote:

>> As you can see, I added garbanzo-flour fritters in there, because serving
>> the squash by itself as a separate course seems kind of weak to me. The
>> garbanzo-flour fritters are really good, but does adding them to the menu
>> just for the sake of punching up the squash course really constitute an
>> IMPROVEMENT to the menu? Or should I do the "USA Standard" thing of
>> moving the salad to the beginning and serving the cranberry intermezzo
>> just before dessert?
>>
>
> Okay, why do you feel that squash as a separate course is weak? The
> Italians don't think of vegetables as a separate course as weak...they
> see it as a entity on it's own..and very strong. I personally would
> love the squash to be highlighted as a course on it's own.

But contorni are served *after* segundi. The squash might be fine in that
place by itself, but I'm still left with the question of when to serve the
salad and when to serve the cranberry shot. Moreover, where in the meal
would Italians fit the applesauce? If I were to structure the meal after the
Italian model, I'd have a course progression something like this:

kale-sausage soup

cauliflower purée (closest thing to a "primi", I guess)

pork roast with persimmons
pork jus
applesauce with allspice
green salad with cider vinaigrette

winter squash with lavender & thyme

kiwi shortcake
pumpkin-hazelnut pastries

....but I'm missing an aperitivo (unless I serve the cranberry thing then),
an antipasto (unless I serve the soup in demitasse cups), and the formaggi e
fruti. But that exercise begs the question of why I'm trying to clumsily fit
a Thanksgiving dinner into an Italian format where it doesn't seem to fit
well, and whether Italian gustatory practices should be taken into
consideration at all. It also ignores the fact that the pork ought to go
well with both the squash and the cauliflower. (So why serve them
separately?)


> The fritters seem like overkill to me..like a filler. No..not an
> improvement.
>
> Remember..simple is not always bad. Sometimes you can overdo things,
> and it is not always to the betterment of the dinner.

Would it make a difference if I said that what I've been calling "garbanzo
fritters" are more specifically called "panisse"? And that Lin really likes
them, after having them as part of a dinner at Bouchon?

At any rate, I think you're right that adding them to a separate course
prior to the main course would not be an improvement, especially bearing in
mind what I wrote above that the squash and the pork ought to be served
together. But they *might* make a good appetizer, especially with some kind
of chutney...and maybe the cranberry shot can be an aperitif, but I'm still
not crazy about that idea. I'll have to reflect on the question some more.

Bob

In article <00ff6323$0$23360$[email protected]>,
"Bob Terwilliger" <virtualgoth@die_spammer.biz> wrote:

> Now I think I want to incorporate cranberries in there somewhere. I
> considered making a cranberry sorbet, but decided that it would be too
> "conformist," so I think I'll make joltingly-sour shots of cranberry juice
> with orange peel and chervil...but where in the meal should that be served?
(xsnip

> Bob

It sounds like a palate cleanser to me, Bob. Where would you like a
palate cleanser?


--
-Barb, Mother Superior, HOSSSPoJ
http://web.me.com/barbschaller - Who Said Chickens Have Fingers?
10-30-2009

"Melba's Jammin'" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]..
> In article <00ff6323$0$23360$[email protected]>,
> "Bob Terwilliger" <virtualgoth@die_spammer.biz> wrote:
>
>> Now I think I want to incorporate cranberries in there somewhere. I
>> considered making a cranberry sorbet, but decided that it would be too
>> "conformist," so I think I'll make joltingly-sour shots of cranberry
>> juice
>> with orange peel and chervil...but where in the meal should that be
>> served?
> (xsnip
>
>> Bob
>
> It sounds like a palate cleanser to me, Bob. Where would you like a
> palate cleanser?
>
>
> --
> -Barb, Mother Superior, HOSSSPoJ
> http://web.me.com/barbschaller - Who Said Chickens Have Fingers?
> 10-30-2009

that's what I was just saying to myself....palate cleanser...Barb! Stop
stealing my thoughts......
-g

"Bob Terwilliger" ha scritto nel messaggio
> Christine wrote:
>
>>> As you can see, I added garbanzo-flour fritters in there, because
>>> serving>>> the squash by itself as a separate course seems kind of weak
>>> to me.
they
>> see it as a entity on it's own..and very strong. I personally would>>
>> love the squash to be highlighted as a course on it's own.
>
> But contorni are served *after* segundi.

No, noy usually, but with ol secondo.

The squash might be fine in that> place by itself, but I'm still left with
the question of when to serve the
> salad and when to serve the cranberry shot. Moreover, where in the meal>
> would Italians fit the applesauce?

Nowhere. They don't believe it is food.

>If I were to structure the meal after the
> Italian model, I'd have a course progression something like this:
>
> kale-sausage soup

Soup is a primo just like risotto or pasta.
>
> cauliflower purée (closest thing to a "primi", I guess)

You're pushing too hard.

> pork roast with persimmons
> pork jus
> applesauce with allspice
> green salad with cider vinaigrette
>
> winter squash with lavender & thyme
>
> kiwi shortcake
> pumpkin-hazelnut pastries
>
> ...but I'm missing an aperitivo (unless I serve the cranberry thing then),

which is a drink

> an antipasto (unless I serve the soup in demitasse cups),

One doesn't often have both antipasto and primo these days.

and the formaggi e> fruti.

Uou already have two sweets!|

But that exercise begs the question of why I'm trying to clumsily fit> a
Thanksgiving dinner into an Italian format where it doesn't seem to fit >
well

Good question. We do it, but we are in Italy. We invte Italians, too.

Your shot didn't appeal to me, too strong in description. I'd serve the veg
with the pork then the salad and then the shot followed by dessert. If it
is as sour as you say whatever you have after will taste sweet.

On Nov 20, 9:55*am, "Virginia Tadrzynski" <ta...@ptd.net> wrote:
> "Melba's Jammin'" <barbschal...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]..
>
>
>
>
>
> > In article <00ff6323$0$23360$c3e8...@news.astraweb.com>,
> > "Bob Terwilliger" <virtualgoth@die_spammer.biz> wrote:
>
> >> Now I think I want to incorporate cranberries in there somewhere. I
> >> considered making a cranberry sorbet, but decided that it would be too
> >> "conformist," so I think I'll make joltingly-sour shots of cranberry
> >> juice
> >> with orange peel and chervil...but where in the meal should that be
> >> served?
> > (xsnip
>
> >> Bob
>
> > It sounds like a palate cleanser to me, Bob. *Where would you like a
> > palate cleanser?
>
> > --
> > -Barb, Mother Superior, HOSSSPoJ
> >http://web.me.com/barbschaller- Who Said Chickens Have Fingers?
> > 10-30-2009
>
> that's what I was just saying to myself....palate cleanser...Barb! Stop
> stealing my thoughts......
> -g

Ginny & Barb,
Great minds think alike!
Lynn in Fargo

PS= Serve the squash and the fritters with the pork and move the green
salad to after the soup. Serve the cranberry shots immediately before
the pork/squash/fritters.

Barb wrote:

>> Now I think I want to incorporate cranberries in there somewhere. I
>> considered making a cranberry sorbet, but decided that it would be too
>> "conformist," so I think I'll make joltingly-sour shots of cranberry
>> juice with orange peel and chervil...but where in the meal should that be
>> served?
>
> It sounds like a palate cleanser to me, Bob. Where would you like a
> palate cleanser?

Yes, it is intended to be a palate cleanser. Sorry I didn't mention that
earlier. After getting some sleep I realized I'd want it *during* the main
course. The progression for me would be:

soup

half-serving of pork and persimmons made into a dinner-roll sandwich and
dipped into the jus, along with some of the cauliflower purée

cranberry-orange-chervil palate cleanser

half-serving of pork and applesauce with the squash

salad (which also acts as a palate cleanser)

dessert


Thanks for the help!

Bob