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Thread: Meal Progression Question

  1. #1
    Bob Terwilliger Guest

    Default Meal Progression Question

    I'd planned the following menu for Thanksgiving:


    kale-sausage soup

    pork roast with persimmons
    pork jus
    cauliflower puree
    applesauce with allspice
    winter squash with lavender & thyme

    green salad with cider vinaigrette

    kiwi shortcake
    pumpkin-hazelnut pastries


    Now I think I want to incorporate cranberries in there somewhere. I
    considered making a cranberry sorbet, but decided that it would be too
    "conformist," so I think I'll make joltingly-sour shots of cranberry juice
    with orange peel and chervil...but where in the meal should that be served?
    I know that intermezzo courses are usually served between the main course
    and dessert, but I really like having the salad there instead. And I don't
    know that it would be all that good between the soup and the main course; I
    think it would be better following something which is a bit creamy and rich.
    Should I start out with the cranberry thing like an aperitif, or should I
    break the main course into a couple pieces, with the cranberry shot in
    between them? Here's the progression I'm considering, but I'm not completely
    sold on it:

    kale-sausage soup

    winter squash with lavender & thyme
    garbanzo-flour fritters

    cranberry-orange-chervil shot

    pork roast with persimmons
    pork jus
    cauliflower puree
    applesauce with allspice

    green salad with cider vinaigrette

    kiwi shortcake
    pumpkin-hazelnut pastries


    As you can see, I added garbanzo-flour fritters in there, because serving
    the squash by itself as a separate course seems kind of weak to me. The
    garbanzo-flour fritters are really good, but does adding them to the menu
    just for the sake of punching up the squash course really constitute an
    IMPROVEMENT to the menu? Or should I do the "USA Standard" thing of moving
    the salad to the beginning and serving the cranberry intermezzo just before
    dessert?

    Bob


  2. #2
    Christine Dabney Guest

    Default Re: Meal Progression Question

    On Fri, 20 Nov 2009 01:57:33 -0800, "Bob Terwilliger"
    <virtualgoth@die_spammer.biz> wrote:


    >As you can see, I added garbanzo-flour fritters in there, because serving
    >the squash by itself as a separate course seems kind of weak to me. The
    >garbanzo-flour fritters are really good, but does adding them to the menu
    >just for the sake of punching up the squash course really constitute an
    >IMPROVEMENT to the menu? Or should I do the "USA Standard" thing of moving
    >the salad to the beginning and serving the cranberry intermezzo just before
    >dessert?
    >
    >Bob


    Okay, why do you feel that squash as a separate course is weak? The
    Italians don't think of vegetables as a separate course as weak...they
    see it as a entity on it's own..and very strong. I personally would
    love the squash to be highlighted as a course on it's own.

    The fritters seem like overkill to me..like a filler. No..not an
    improvement.

    Remember..simple is not always bad. Sometimes you can overdo things,
    and it is not always to the betterment of the dinner.

    Christine
    --
    http://nightstirrings.blogspot.com

  3. #3
    Bob Terwilliger Guest

    Default Re: Meal Progression Question

    Christine wrote:

    >> As you can see, I added garbanzo-flour fritters in there, because serving
    >> the squash by itself as a separate course seems kind of weak to me. The
    >> garbanzo-flour fritters are really good, but does adding them to the menu
    >> just for the sake of punching up the squash course really constitute an
    >> IMPROVEMENT to the menu? Or should I do the "USA Standard" thing of
    >> moving the salad to the beginning and serving the cranberry intermezzo
    >> just before dessert?
    >>

    >
    > Okay, why do you feel that squash as a separate course is weak? The
    > Italians don't think of vegetables as a separate course as weak...they
    > see it as a entity on it's own..and very strong. I personally would
    > love the squash to be highlighted as a course on it's own.


    But contorni are served *after* segundi. The squash might be fine in that
    place by itself, but I'm still left with the question of when to serve the
    salad and when to serve the cranberry shot. Moreover, where in the meal
    would Italians fit the applesauce? If I were to structure the meal after the
    Italian model, I'd have a course progression something like this:

    kale-sausage soup

    cauliflower purée (closest thing to a "primi", I guess)

    pork roast with persimmons
    pork jus
    applesauce with allspice
    green salad with cider vinaigrette

    winter squash with lavender & thyme

    kiwi shortcake
    pumpkin-hazelnut pastries

    ....but I'm missing an aperitivo (unless I serve the cranberry thing then),
    an antipasto (unless I serve the soup in demitasse cups), and the formaggi e
    fruti. But that exercise begs the question of why I'm trying to clumsily fit
    a Thanksgiving dinner into an Italian format where it doesn't seem to fit
    well, and whether Italian gustatory practices should be taken into
    consideration at all. It also ignores the fact that the pork ought to go
    well with both the squash and the cauliflower. (So why serve them
    separately?)


    > The fritters seem like overkill to me..like a filler. No..not an
    > improvement.
    >
    > Remember..simple is not always bad. Sometimes you can overdo things,
    > and it is not always to the betterment of the dinner.


    Would it make a difference if I said that what I've been calling "garbanzo
    fritters" are more specifically called "panisse"? And that Lin really likes
    them, after having them as part of a dinner at Bouchon?

    At any rate, I think you're right that adding them to a separate course
    prior to the main course would not be an improvement, especially bearing in
    mind what I wrote above that the squash and the pork ought to be served
    together. But they *might* make a good appetizer, especially with some kind
    of chutney...and maybe the cranberry shot can be an aperitif, but I'm still
    not crazy about that idea. I'll have to reflect on the question some more.

    Bob


  4. #4
    Melba's Jammin' Guest

    Default Re: Meal Progression Question

    In article <00ff6323$0$23360$[email protected]>,
    "Bob Terwilliger" <virtualgoth@die_spammer.biz> wrote:

    > Now I think I want to incorporate cranberries in there somewhere. I
    > considered making a cranberry sorbet, but decided that it would be too
    > "conformist," so I think I'll make joltingly-sour shots of cranberry juice
    > with orange peel and chervil...but where in the meal should that be served?

    (xsnip

    > Bob


    It sounds like a palate cleanser to me, Bob. Where would you like a
    palate cleanser?


    --
    -Barb, Mother Superior, HOSSSPoJ
    http://web.me.com/barbschaller - Who Said Chickens Have Fingers?
    10-30-2009

  5. #5
    Virginia Tadrzynski Guest

    Default Re: Meal Progression Question


    "Melba's Jammin'" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]..
    > In article <00ff6323$0$23360$[email protected]>,
    > "Bob Terwilliger" <virtualgoth@die_spammer.biz> wrote:
    >
    >> Now I think I want to incorporate cranberries in there somewhere. I
    >> considered making a cranberry sorbet, but decided that it would be too
    >> "conformist," so I think I'll make joltingly-sour shots of cranberry
    >> juice
    >> with orange peel and chervil...but where in the meal should that be
    >> served?

    > (xsnip
    >
    >> Bob

    >
    > It sounds like a palate cleanser to me, Bob. Where would you like a
    > palate cleanser?
    >
    >
    > --
    > -Barb, Mother Superior, HOSSSPoJ
    > http://web.me.com/barbschaller - Who Said Chickens Have Fingers?
    > 10-30-2009


    that's what I was just saying to myself....palate cleanser...Barb! Stop
    stealing my thoughts......
    -g



  6. #6
    Giusi Guest

    Default Re: Meal Progression Question


    "Bob Terwilliger" ha scritto nel messaggio
    > Christine wrote:
    >
    >>> As you can see, I added garbanzo-flour fritters in there, because
    >>> serving>>> the squash by itself as a separate course seems kind of weak
    >>> to me.

    they
    >> see it as a entity on it's own..and very strong. I personally would>>
    >> love the squash to be highlighted as a course on it's own.

    >
    > But contorni are served *after* segundi.


    No, noy usually, but with ol secondo.

    The squash might be fine in that> place by itself, but I'm still left with
    the question of when to serve the
    > salad and when to serve the cranberry shot. Moreover, where in the meal>
    > would Italians fit the applesauce?


    Nowhere. They don't believe it is food.

    >If I were to structure the meal after the
    > Italian model, I'd have a course progression something like this:
    >
    > kale-sausage soup


    Soup is a primo just like risotto or pasta.
    >
    > cauliflower purée (closest thing to a "primi", I guess)


    You're pushing too hard.

    > pork roast with persimmons
    > pork jus
    > applesauce with allspice
    > green salad with cider vinaigrette
    >
    > winter squash with lavender & thyme
    >
    > kiwi shortcake
    > pumpkin-hazelnut pastries
    >
    > ...but I'm missing an aperitivo (unless I serve the cranberry thing then),


    which is a drink

    > an antipasto (unless I serve the soup in demitasse cups),


    One doesn't often have both antipasto and primo these days.

    and the formaggi e> fruti.

    Uou already have two sweets!|

    But that exercise begs the question of why I'm trying to clumsily fit> a
    Thanksgiving dinner into an Italian format where it doesn't seem to fit >
    well

    Good question. We do it, but we are in Italy. We invte Italians, too.

    Your shot didn't appeal to me, too strong in description. I'd serve the veg
    with the pork then the salad and then the shot followed by dessert. If it
    is as sour as you say whatever you have after will taste sweet.



  7. #7
    Lynn from Fargo Guest

    Default Re: Meal Progression Question

    On Nov 20, 9:55*am, "Virginia Tadrzynski" <ta...@ptd.net> wrote:
    > "Melba's Jammin'" <barbschal...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
    >
    > news:[email protected]..
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > > In article <00ff6323$0$23360$c3e8...@news.astraweb.com>,
    > > "Bob Terwilliger" <virtualgoth@die_spammer.biz> wrote:

    >
    > >> Now I think I want to incorporate cranberries in there somewhere. I
    > >> considered making a cranberry sorbet, but decided that it would be too
    > >> "conformist," so I think I'll make joltingly-sour shots of cranberry
    > >> juice
    > >> with orange peel and chervil...but where in the meal should that be
    > >> served?

    > > (xsnip

    >
    > >> Bob

    >
    > > It sounds like a palate cleanser to me, Bob. *Where would you like a
    > > palate cleanser?

    >
    > > --
    > > -Barb, Mother Superior, HOSSSPoJ
    > >http://web.me.com/barbschaller- Who Said Chickens Have Fingers?
    > > 10-30-2009

    >
    > that's what I was just saying to myself....palate cleanser...Barb! Stop
    > stealing my thoughts......
    > -g


    Ginny & Barb,
    Great minds think alike!
    Lynn in Fargo

    PS= Serve the squash and the fritters with the pork and move the green
    salad to after the soup. Serve the cranberry shots immediately before
    the pork/squash/fritters.

  8. #8
    Bob Terwilliger Guest

    Default Re: Meal Progression Question

    Barb wrote:

    >> Now I think I want to incorporate cranberries in there somewhere. I
    >> considered making a cranberry sorbet, but decided that it would be too
    >> "conformist," so I think I'll make joltingly-sour shots of cranberry
    >> juice with orange peel and chervil...but where in the meal should that be
    >> served?

    >
    > It sounds like a palate cleanser to me, Bob. Where would you like a
    > palate cleanser?


    Yes, it is intended to be a palate cleanser. Sorry I didn't mention that
    earlier. After getting some sleep I realized I'd want it *during* the main
    course. The progression for me would be:

    soup

    half-serving of pork and persimmons made into a dinner-roll sandwich and
    dipped into the jus, along with some of the cauliflower purée

    cranberry-orange-chervil palate cleanser

    half-serving of pork and applesauce with the squash

    salad (which also acts as a palate cleanser)

    dessert


    Thanks for the help!

    Bob




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