Thread: knife steel over used

On Wed, 7 Mar 2012 09:30:23 -0000, "john east" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>I've read that knife sharpening 'steels', at a molecular level; do not cut
>or grind, but simply * roll * the molecules on the edge of the blade back
>into a straight line.
>
>That being so chefs and butchers who do this steel waving endlessly might be
>doing it for a bit of a show, since you would think just several strokes
>would do such a job?
>
>What might be the optimum number of strokes that might be worth doing,
>before picking up the knife to use; would you say ?
>

Depends on the type and hardness of the blade, the surface of the
steel, etc. I do a few swipes, but I have no idea what is optimal.

On 7/03/2012 8:30 PM, john east wrote:
> I've read that knife sharpening 'steels', at a molecular level; do not cut
> or grind, but simply * roll * the molecules on the edge of the blade back
> into a straight line.

I think its not so much that the molecules are aligned but more that the
surface irregularities from the grinding or honing operations are
slightly compressed and reshaped. If you look at a newly ground knife
edge under a microscope you will find the edge to be quite ragged so I
suspect it has more to do with deburring the roughness that results from
the grinding operation.
>
> That being so chefs and butchers who do this steel waving endlessly might be
> doing it for a bit of a show, since you would think just several strokes
> would do such a job?

I don't think the steel waving is going to operate at a molecular level.
Probably it's merely smoothing the roughness from the grinding operation
and since knife steels are quite hard, a few strops won't cut it.
>
> What might be the optimum number of strokes that might be worth doing,
> before picking up the knife to use; would you say ?
>

Test the knife for sharpness at regular intervals and you will soon
learn to judge this for yourself. I prefer to grind the blade, then
strop or steel the blade until I'm satisfied with the edge. I will only
strop a few times before I again resort to grinding.

--

Krypsis

On Wed, 7 Mar 2012 09:30:23 -0000, "john east" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>I've read that knife sharpening 'steels', at a molecular level; do not cut
>or grind, but simply * roll * the molecules on the edge of the blade back
>into a straight line.
>
>That being so chefs and butchers who do this steel waving endlessly might be
>doing it for a bit of a show, since you would think just several strokes
>would do such a job?
>
>What might be the optimum number of strokes that might be worth doing,
>before picking up the knife to use; would you say ?

Steeling a knife is exactly like masturbation, keep stroking until it
feels good.

Brooklyn1 wrote:
>
> On Wed, 7 Mar 2012 09:30:23 -0000, "john east" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >I've read that knife sharpening 'steels', at a molecular level; do not cut
> >or grind, but simply * roll * the molecules on the edge of the blade back
> >into a straight line.
> >
> >That being so chefs and butchers who do this steel waving endlessly might be
> >doing it for a bit of a show, since you would think just several strokes
> >would do such a job?
> >
> >What might be the optimum number of strokes that might be worth doing,
> >before picking up the knife to use; would you say ?
>
> Steeling a knife is exactly like masturbation, keep stroking until it
> feels good.

disturbing analogy ;0

On 7-Mar-2012, Krypsis <[email protected]> wrote:

> On 7/03/2012 8:30 PM, john east wrote:
> > I've read that knife sharpening 'steels', at a molecular level; do not
> > cut
> > or grind, but simply * roll * the molecules on the edge of the blade
> > back
> > into a straight line.
>
> I think its not so much that the molecules are aligned but more that the
> surface irregularities from the grinding or honing operations are
> slightly compressed and reshaped. If you look at a newly ground knife
> edge under a microscope you will find the edge to be quite ragged so I
> suspect it has more to do with deburring the roughness that results from
> the grinding operation.
> >

The edge of a sharp blade is very thin; as you cut, that edge can "roll"
slightly, especially when it hits a cutting board or other very hard
surface. What starts as a sharp V edge becomes a less effective J

The use of a steel pushes/straightens/realigns the J edge back to a V


--

Change Cujo to Juno in email address.

"john east" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:jj79rl$sd9$[email protected]..
> I've read that knife sharpening 'steels', at a molecular level; do not cut
> or grind, but simply * roll * the molecules on the edge of the blade back
> into a straight line.
>
From what I understand, you have to take a knife to an actual person who
grinds them in order to get it back to the original condition. I do a few
swipes against the steel to hone the edge. I've never acutally counted how
many times I do this.

Jill

On Wed, 07 Mar 2012 10:08:55 -0500, Gary <[email protected]> wrote:

>Brooklyn1 wrote:
>> Steeling a knife is exactly like masturbation, keep stroking until it
>> feels good.
>
>disturbing analogy ;0

But set forth by someone who should certainly know! ;-)

John Kuthe...

On Mar 7, 4:30*am, "john east" <po...@mail.invalid> wrote:
> I've read that knife sharpening 'steels', at a molecular level; do not cut
> or grind, but simply * roll * the molecules on the edge of the blade back
> into a straight line.
>
> That being so chefs and butchers who do this steel waving endlessly mightbe
> doing it for a bit of a show, since you would think just several strokes
> would do such a job?
>
> What might be the optimum number of strokes that might be worth doing,
> before picking up the knife to use; would you say ?

I was taught to steel the knife six times per side. Steeling is meant
to align the edge of the knife back to it's ground, sharpened
position. Of course the knife still needs to be ground from time to
time, and eventually steeling the knife doesn't do much.

john east <[email protected]> wrote:
> I've read that knife sharpening 'steels', at a molecular level; do
> not cut or grind, but simply * roll * the molecules on the edge of
> the blade back into a straight line.
>
> That being so chefs and butchers who do this steel waving endlessly
> might be doing it for a bit of a show, since you would think just
> several strokes would do such a job?
>
> What might be the optimum number of strokes that might be worth doing,
> before picking up the knife to use; would you say ?

Properly used a steel both preserves and in some cases improves the
sharpness of knives. Even good quality knives which have been abused can be
somewhat brought back to a serviceable state with frequent steeling.

It's not something you can do once or twice on occasion to fix a blade which
has gone dull. It is standard mainatenance per use.

After watching many experts and chefs with renowned knife skills, Jacques
Pepin in particular, I have arrived at the conclusion that bi-directional
steeling is the best for preserving edges and honing or sharpening some
edges which still have life in them.

This involves steeling both backwards and forwards. First I do pull strokes,
where the sharp edge is trailing as it is pulled down the steel. This is
done alternately on both sides. Then the knife is flipped over and steeled
with the edge first, as if cutting the steel.

This is not something that works if you do it once in a while. You have to
do it with every use. Sometimes it gets done twice per use, once when
cleaning and again just before use.

With a forged knife which needs some rehab or just good maintenance, this
method gives you a very durable edge which is also quite sharp. However
given the hardness of good steel, you can't expect instant results. Cheaper
stamped steel, for example Chicago Cutlery, also benefits from this
technique, and will be made extremely sharp over time, although it cannot
approach the sheer durability of a forged blade. However I have both kinds
of blades in my blocks and this technique keeps them all very sharp indeed.

Of course at some point edge damage requires resharpening, which basically
amounts to starting from scratch.

I doubt most people go to as much trouble as I do, but OTOH it's my
impression that many people have problems with dull damaged knives and
perhaps end up doing a lot of actual resharpening which may not have been
necessary with good maintenance.

One more thing is that you need a good quality steel. I have seen cheap
steels that actually do more damage than help. If you feel irregularities
when drawing the knife down the steel, clean the steel well and if you still
feel it, inspect both steel and blade to determine where the irregularities
are. I have actually straightened out knives which were so edge=mangled that
you could feel it going down the steel. But it takes time and patience. But
if the steel itself seems to have irregularities, it could damage your
knives. I have actually tested this with a friend who had just bought a set
of Victorinox knives with a fancy looking steel. It demonstrably damaged the
blades on a couple of Dexter chefs knives. Use the steel made for your knife
set, or better. I have a steel that came with my forged JA Henckels and I
use it on both forged and stamped blades with great success.

OK, two more things. The second one is, you have to clean the steel. Every
so often, wipe it down vigorously with a soft cloth. You will find a dark
grey residue on the cloth. This is actually microscopic steel. This is also
proof that there is some minute amount of sharpening going on when using a
steel. But mostly, the steel is honing, unrolling, and magnetically aligning
your knife edges.

MartyB

On 8/03/2012 2:08 AM, Gary wrote:
> Brooklyn1 wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, 7 Mar 2012 09:30:23 -0000, "john east"<[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I've read that knife sharpening 'steels', at a molecular level; do not cut
>>> or grind, but simply * roll * the molecules on the edge of the blade back
>>> into a straight line.
>>>
>>> That being so chefs and butchers who do this steel waving endlessly might be
>>> doing it for a bit of a show, since you would think just several strokes
>>> would do such a job?
>>>
>>> What might be the optimum number of strokes that might be worth doing,
>>> before picking up the knife to use; would you say ?
>>
>> Steeling a knife is exactly like masturbation, keep stroking until it
>> feels good.
>
> disturbing analogy ;0

Standard Brooklyn fare. It's all he knows.

--

Krypsis

On 8/03/2012 4:12 AM, A Moose in Love wrote:
> On Mar 7, 4:30 am, "john east"<po...@mail.invalid> wrote:
>> I've read that knife sharpening 'steels', at a molecular level; do not cut
>> or grind, but simply * roll * the molecules on the edge of the blade back
>> into a straight line.
>>
>> That being so chefs and butchers who do this steel waving endlessly might be
>> doing it for a bit of a show, since you would think just several strokes
>> would do such a job?
>>
>> What might be the optimum number of strokes that might be worth doing,
>> before picking up the knife to use; would you say ?
>
> I was taught to steel the knife six times per side. Steeling is meant
> to align the edge of the knife back to it's ground, sharpened
> position. Of course the knife still needs to be ground from time to
> time, and eventually steeling the knife doesn't do much.

Yes, that was my experience. 4 or 5 times and a regrind is required.

--

Krypsis

On 3/7/2012 10:26 AM, l, not -l wrote:
> On 7-Mar-2012, Krypsis<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On 7/03/2012 8:30 PM, john east wrote:
>>> I've read that knife sharpening 'steels', at a molecular level; do not
>>> cut
>>> or grind, but simply * roll * the molecules on the edge of the blade
>>> back
>>> into a straight line.
>>
>> I think its not so much that the molecules are aligned but more that the
>> surface irregularities from the grinding or honing operations are
>> slightly compressed and reshaped. If you look at a newly ground knife
>> edge under a microscope you will find the edge to be quite ragged so I
>> suspect it has more to do with deburring the roughness that results from
>> the grinding operation.
>>>
>
> The edge of a sharp blade is very thin; as you cut, that edge can "roll"
> slightly, especially when it hits a cutting board or other very hard
> surface. What starts as a sharp V edge becomes a less effective J
>
> The use of a steel pushes/straightens/realigns the J edge back to a V

Yes. It also burnishes the metal, which is more or less what Krypsis wrote.

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

On 3/7/2012 11:19 AM, jmcquown wrote:
>
> "john east" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:jj79rl$sd9$[email protected]..
>> I've read that knife sharpening 'steels', at a molecular level; do not
>> cut or grind, but simply * roll * the molecules on the edge of the
>> blade back into a straight line.
>>
> From what I understand, you have to take a knife to an actual person
> who grinds them in order to get it back to the original condition. I do
> a few swipes against the steel to hone the edge. I've never acutally
> counted how many times I do this.

You too can be that actual person. Only rarely have I seen a new knife
that was as sharp as you can easily make it at home. It doesn't need
much practice.

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯