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Thread: Haggis is ENGLISH!

  1. #1
    Adam Hunt Guest

    Default Haggis is ENGLISH!

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8180791.stm

    Haggis is English, historian says

    A haggis recipe was published in an English book almost two hundred
    years before any evidence of the dish in Scotland, an historian has
    claimed.

    Historian Catherine Brown told the Daily Telegraph that she found
    references to the dish inside a 1616 book called The English Hus-Wife.

    The title would pre-date Robert Burns' poem To A Haggis by 171 years.

    But ex-world champion haggis maker Robert Patrick insisted: "Nobody's
    going to believe it."

    Ms Brown said the book, by Gervase Markham, indicates that haggis was
    first eaten in England and subsequently popularised by the Scots.

    She told the paper that the first mention she could find of Scottish
    haggis was in 1747.

    "It was originally an English dish. In 1615, Gervase Markham says that
    it is very popular among all people in England," she said.

    "By the middle of the 18th century another English cookery writer,
    Hannah Glasse, has a recipe that she calls Scotch haggis, the haggis
    that we know today."

    Her findings are due to be broadcast in a documentary on STV in
    Scotland.

    But Mr Patrick said the idea haggis originated in England is akin to
    claims by the Dutch and Chinese to have invented golf.

    He added: "Anything that's to do with Scotland, everybody wants to get
    a part of.

    "We've nurtured the thing for all these years, we've developed it, so I
    think very much it is a Scottish product.

    "It's one of the mainstays of my business' economy so we'd never give
    it up."

    James Macsween, whose Edinburgh-based company makes haggis, said it
    will remain a Scottish icon whatever its origin.

    He said even if the haggis was eaten in England long before Burns made
    it famous, Scotland has done a better job of looking after it.

    And he added: "I didn't hear of Shakespeare writing a poem about it."


  2. #2
    Michaelangelo Guest

    Default Re: Haggis is ENGLISH!

    Adam Hunt burst on the scene, and said:
    > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8180791.stm
    >
    > Haggis is English, historian says


    <SNIP>

    But there's no evidence that Haggis have ever actually bred in England.


    --
    Michaelangelo
    Self-catering Holiday Accommodation for Disabled People
    www.woodhead-cottage.co.uk



  3. #3
    James Hogg Guest

    Default Re: Haggis is ENGLISH!

    Quoth "Adam Hunt" <[email protected]>, and I quote:

    >http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8180791.stm
    >
    >Haggis is English, historian says
    >
    >A haggis recipe was published in an English book almost two hundred
    >years before any evidence of the dish in Scotland, an historian has
    >claimed.
    >
    >Historian Catherine Brown told the Daily Telegraph that she found
    >references to the dish inside a 1616 book called The English Hus-Wife.
    >
    >The title would pre-date Robert Burns' poem To A Haggis by 171 years.
    >
    >But ex-world champion haggis maker Robert Patrick insisted: "Nobody's
    >going to believe it."
    >
    >Ms Brown said the book, by Gervase Markham, indicates that haggis was
    >first eaten in England and subsequently popularised by the Scots.
    >
    >She told the paper that the first mention she could find of Scottish
    >haggis was in 1747.
    >
    >"It was originally an English dish. In 1615, Gervase Markham says that
    >it is very popular among all people in England," she said.
    >
    >"By the middle of the 18th century another English cookery writer,
    >Hannah Glasse, has a recipe that she calls Scotch haggis, the haggis
    >that we know today."
    >
    >Her findings are due to be broadcast in a documentary on STV in
    >Scotland.
    >
    >But Mr Patrick said the idea haggis originated in England is akin to
    >claims by the Dutch and Chinese to have invented golf.
    >
    >He added: "Anything that's to do with Scotland, everybody wants to get
    >a part of.
    >
    >"We've nurtured the thing for all these years, we've developed it, so I
    >think very much it is a Scottish product.
    >
    >"It's one of the mainstays of my business' economy so we'd never give
    >it up."
    >
    >James Macsween, whose Edinburgh-based company makes haggis, said it
    >will remain a Scottish icon whatever its origin.
    >
    >He said even if the haggis was eaten in England long before Burns made
    >it famous, Scotland has done a better job of looking after it.
    >
    >And he added: "I didn't hear of Shakespeare writing a poem about it."



    This isn't exactly news. You just have to look in the Oxford
    English Dictionary, where the first two examples of the word come
    from English cookery books dating from about 1420 and 1430.
    This is long before the 1616 book that the seemingly incompetent
    historian Catherine Brown has found.

    The earlist recorded Scotish example is from 1508,
    from William Dunbar:
    "The gallowis gaipis eftir thy graceles gruntill,
    As thow wald for ane haggeis."

    How come Catherine Brown couldn't find any mention of Scottish
    haggis before 1747? Did she never think of looking in the
    dictionaries?

    The OED notes: "Now considered specially Scotch, but a popular
    dish in English cookery down to the beginning of the 18th
    century."

    And the Scottish National Dictionary agrees:
    "Now regarded as a traditionally Scottish dish, but also popular
    in England until the beginning of the 18th cent. and still made
    in n.Eng. with some variation of the ingredients."

    No one knows the origin of the word, and no one can say that the
    dish (in its many variants) was invented in either England or
    Scotland. All we know for sure is that it used to be widespread
    all over Britain and it has survived longer in Scotland.

    --
    James

  4. #4
    james Guest

    Default Re: Haggis is ENGLISH!

    In message <[email protected]>, Michaelangelo
    <[email protected]> writes
    >Adam Hunt burst on the scene, and said:
    >> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8180791.stm
    >>
    >> Haggis is English, historian says

    >
    ><SNIP>
    >
    >But there's no evidence that Haggis have ever actually bred in England.


    Judging the mess that willing for a shilling slappers
    and their vomit comic companions leave on the beach
    on Saturday nights, I'm not too shore I want to see
    any evidence. It's bad enough having mogs disturbing the
    peace when they're feline groovy.

    --
    James Follett. http://www.jamesfollett.dswilliams.co.uk
    http://www.pbase.com/jamesfollett http://www.bevanwilson.co.uk/media/files/Stro
    ke-rec.pdf http://www.powcorp.com/title/view/401/ice
    http://www.radioreviews.org/

  5. #5
    James Silverton Guest

    Default Re: Haggis is ENGLISH!

    Adam wrote on Mon, 3 Aug 2009 09:19:19 +0000 (UTC):

    > Haggis is English, historian says


    > A haggis recipe was published in an English book almost two
    > hundred years before any evidence of the dish in Scotland, an
    > historian has claimed.


    I wouldn't be a bit surprised by seeing the recipe but I expect that
    offal sausage arose in both countries and at about the same time, It
    just lingered longer in Scotland.

    --

    James Silverton
    Potomac, Maryland

    Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not


  6. #6
    james Guest

    Default Re: Haggis is ENGLISH!


    In message <%bydm.63495$[email protected] >, Pam the
    goose <[email protected]> writes

    >Watch the crossposting.


    Nothing to worry about unless added to. They are within the net news
    compliant number, are subject-related, and they are cross-posted -- not
    individually posted. All within the guidelines of the RFC1855.
    Individual posting is the big NO NO. At least it was about twenty years
    ago when I had a JAnet AUP muppet come down on me like a tonne of pricks
    for that.

    England's bats make me weep at times.

    --
    James Follett. http://www.jamesfollett.dswilliams.co.uk
    http://www.pbase.com/jamesfollett http://www.bevanwilson.co.uk/media/files/Stro
    ke-rec.pdf http://www.powcorp.com/title/view/401/ice
    http://www.radioreviews.org/

  7. #7
    Robin T Cox Guest

    Default Re: Haggis is ENGLISH!

    Adam Hunt wrote:

    > Haggis is English, historian says


    Has anyone ever tried eating English haggis? If so, what's it like?

    --
    Facts are sacred ... but comment is free

  8. #8
    Dora Guest

    Default Re: Haggis is ENGLISH!

    Adam Hunt wrote:
    > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8180791.stm
    >
    > Haggis is English, historian says
    >
    > A haggis recipe was published in an English book almost two hundred
    > years before any evidence of the dish in Scotland, an historian has
    > claimed.


    The English willingly sent it to Scotland. <eg>

    Dora

  9. #9
    Brian Reay Guest

    Default Re: Haggis is ENGLISH!

    "Adam Hunt" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]..
    > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8180791.stm
    >
    > Haggis is English, historian says
    >
    > A haggis recipe was published in an English book almost two hundred
    > years before any evidence of the dish in Scotland, an historian has
    > claimed.
    >


    And this is a surprise to you?

    Everyone knows the very best haggis is that caught in the wild in England.
    True, the wild haggis is descendant from escaped captive haggis in the 19th
    century but it is now, to all intents and purposes, wild. Haggis farms
    were one of the early victims of EU rules and now no longer exist.

    All this "sheep's stomach" stuff is just a myth to protect the wild
    population from over hunting.

    ;-)

    Brian




  10. #10
    Mr. Joseph Littleshoes Esq. Guest

    Default Re: Haggis is ENGLISH!



    Adam Hunt wrote:
    > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8180791.stm
    >
    > Haggis is English, historian says
    >
    > A haggis recipe was published in an English book almost two hundred
    > years before any evidence of the dish in Scotland, an historian has
    > claimed.


    Ever seen French bag pipes?

    They look, structurally just like Scottish bag pipes, but in Normandy,
    where they are still played, they often have the wood of the pipes
    painted white with some light gilding, touches of gold on the white
    paint and love brocaded and brightly colored fabric for the air bladder.

    The example i saw was a 1700's rococo bag pipes, very pretty.
    Unfortunately they sound just as dreadful as the Scottish versions

    >

    --

    Mr. Joseph Littleshoes Esq.

    Domine, dirige nos.
    Let the games begin!
    http://fredeeky.typepad.com/fredeeky.../sf_anthem.mp3


  11. #11
    Allan Guest

    Default Re: Haggis is ENGLISH!


    "Adam Hunt" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]..
    > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8180791.stm
    >
    > Haggis is English, historian says
    >
    > A haggis recipe was published in an English book almost two hundred
    > years before any evidence of the dish in Scotland, an historian has
    > claimed.


    Well she's got her dates all wrong but taking that aside just because there
    is written evidence of haggis in England it doesn't prove it was an English
    rather than Scottish dish. In fact I suspect that they ate basically much
    the same in the south of Scotland as they did in the north of England.

    Allan


  12. #12
    James Silverton Guest

    Default Re: Haggis is ENGLISH!

    Mr. wrote on Mon, 03 Aug 2009 11:21:14 -0700:


    > Adam Hunt wrote:
    >> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8180791.stm
    >>
    >> Haggis is English, historian says
    >>
    >> A haggis recipe was published in an English book almost two
    >> hundred years before any evidence of the dish in Scotland, an
    >> historian has claimed.


    > Ever seen French bag pipes?


    > They look, structurally just like Scottish bag pipes, but in
    > Normandy, where they are still played, they often have the
    > wood of the pipes painted white with some light gilding,
    > touches of gold on the white paint and love brocaded and
    > brightly colored fabric for the air bladder.


    > The example i saw was a 1700's rococo bag pipes, very pretty.
    > Unfortunately they sound just as dreadful as the Scottish versions


    Do they work like Northumbrian or Irish pipes with a kind of arm
    operated bellows? I've even seen a picture of a gentleman of the court
    of Louis XIV of France playing such pipes. Both of those are less of an
    outdoor instrument than the Scottish pipes.

    --

    James Silverton
    Potomac, Maryland

    Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not


  13. #13
    The Doctor Guest

  14. #14
    Michaelangelo Guest

    Default Re: Haggis is ENGLISH!

    The Doctor burst on the scene, and said:
    > And perfected and exported by Scotland!


    Actually, in this day and age, it's most likely made in China.

    --
    Michaelangelo
    Self-catering, Highland holiday accommodation for disabled people
    www.woodhead-cottage.co.uk



  15. #15
    conwaycaine Guest

    Default Re: Haggis is ENGLISH!


    "Allan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:n_Fdm.122381$[email protected]..
    >
    > "Adam Hunt" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]..
    >> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8180791.stm
    >>
    >> Haggis is English, historian says
    >>
    >> A haggis recipe was published in an English book almost two hundred
    >> years before any evidence of the dish in Scotland, an historian has
    >> claimed.

    >
    > Well she's got her dates all wrong but taking that aside just because
    > there is written evidence of haggis in England it doesn't prove it was an
    > English rather than Scottish dish. In fact I suspect that they ate
    > basically much the same in the south of Scotland as they did in the north
    > of England.


    All this to do about what is actually glorified Meat Loaf????



  16. #16
    Allan Guest

    Default Re: Haggis is ENGLISH!


    "conwaycaine" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected] ...
    >
    > "Allan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:n_Fdm.122381$[email protected]..
    >>
    >> "Adam Hunt" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >> news:[email protected]..
    >>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8180791.stm
    >>>
    >>> Haggis is English, historian says
    >>>
    >>> A haggis recipe was published in an English book almost two hundred
    >>> years before any evidence of the dish in Scotland, an historian has
    >>> claimed.

    >>
    >> Well she's got her dates all wrong but taking that aside just because
    >> there is written evidence of haggis in England it doesn't prove it was an
    >> English rather than Scottish dish. In fact I suspect that they ate
    >> basically much the same in the south of Scotland as they did in the north
    >> of England.

    >
    > All this to do about what is actually glorified Meat Loaf????



    I would do anything for love...........but I won't eat that.

    Allan


  17. #17
    Custos Custodum Guest

    Default Re: Haggis is ENGLISH!

    "Allan" <[email protected]> wrote in
    news:5NXdm.98418$[email protected]:

    >
    > "conwaycaine" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected] ...
    >>
    >> "Allan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >> news:n_Fdm.122381$[email protected]..
    >>>
    >>> "Adam Hunt" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >>> news:[email protected]..
    >>>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8180791.stm
    >>>>
    >>>> Haggis is English, historian says
    >>>>
    >>>> A haggis recipe was published in an English book almost two hundred
    >>>> years before any evidence of the dish in Scotland, an historian has
    >>>> claimed.
    >>>
    >>> Well she's got her dates all wrong but taking that aside just
    >>> because there is written evidence of haggis in England it doesn't
    >>> prove it was an English rather than Scottish dish. In fact I
    >>> suspect that they ate basically much the same in the south of
    >>> Scotland as they did in the north of England.

    >>
    >> All this to do about what is actually glorified Meat Loaf????

    >
    >
    > I would do anything for love...........but I won't eat that.
    >


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYRM2SEJXsc

  18. #18
    conwaycaine Guest

    Default Re: Haggis is ENGLISH!


    "Allan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:5NXdm.98418$[email protected]..
    >
    > "conwaycaine" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected] ...
    >>
    >> "Allan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >> news:n_Fdm.122381$[email protected]..
    >>>
    >>> "Adam Hunt" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >>> news:[email protected]..
    >>>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8180791.stm
    >>>>
    >>>> Haggis is English, historian says
    >>>>
    >>>> A haggis recipe was published in an English book almost two hundred
    >>>> years before any evidence of the dish in Scotland, an historian has
    >>>> claimed.
    >>>
    >>> Well she's got her dates all wrong but taking that aside just because
    >>> there is written evidence of haggis in England it doesn't prove it was
    >>> an English rather than Scottish dish. In fact I suspect that they ate
    >>> basically much the same in the south of Scotland as they did in the
    >>> north of England.

    >>
    >> All this to do about what is actually glorified Meat Loaf????

    >
    >
    > I would do anything for love...........but I won't eat that.


    Meat Loaf, properly prepared, isn't all that bad.



  19. #19
    alan.holmes Guest

    Default Re: Haggis is ENGLISH!


    "Michaelangelo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]..
    > Adam Hunt burst on the scene, and said:
    >> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8180791.stm
    >>
    >> Haggis is English, historian says

    >
    > <SNIP>
    >
    > But there's no evidence that Haggis have ever actually bred in England.


    That's because we don't have the right shaped hills!



  20. #20
    alan.holmes Guest

    Default Re: Haggis is ENGLISH!


    "Allan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:5NXdm.98418$[email protected]..
    >
    > "conwaycaine" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:ktKdnUNiE[email protected] ...
    >>
    >> "Allan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >> news:n_Fdm.122381$[email protected]..
    >>>
    >>> "Adam Hunt" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >>> news:[email protected]..
    >>>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8180791.stm
    >>>>
    >>>> Haggis is English, historian says
    >>>>
    >>>> A haggis recipe was published in an English book almost two hundred
    >>>> years before any evidence of the dish in Scotland, an historian has
    >>>> claimed.
    >>>
    >>> Well she's got her dates all wrong but taking that aside just because
    >>> there is written evidence of haggis in England it doesn't prove it was
    >>> an English rather than Scottish dish. In fact I suspect that they ate
    >>> basically much the same in the south of Scotland as they did in the
    >>> north of England.

    >>
    >> All this to do about what is actually glorified Meat Loaf????

    >
    >
    > I would do anything for love...........but I won't eat that.


    You don't know what you are missing!



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