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Thread: Is Eating Meat Ethical?

  1. #1
    ImStillMags Guest

    Default Is Eating Meat Ethical?

    By now, you’ve probably heard about the essay contest the NY Times is
    running. The prompt is “Tell us why it’s ethical to eat meat. I'm
    posting a reply that fits my thoughts exactly. I didn't write it,
    Mark Sisson did. He's correct.


    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Is eating meat ethical?

    I find it odd that in their prompt for the essay, the NY Times forbids
    entrants from mentioning conscientious carnivory, local versus
    organic, grass-fed versus factory-raised, or sustainable versus
    unsustainable. In other words, they expect us to simply explain “why
    it’s ethical to eat meat” without allowing for any of the
    considerations or external factors that might affect the “ethics” of
    meat-eating.

    How do I proceed, absent the ability to actually discuss the nuances?
    It’s a tough question, but I’ll try.

    “Ethical” implies that we have a choice. Both dietary choices –
    omnivory and herbivory – cause animals to die. We have to eat
    something, and whichever choice we make, animals will die. There’s no
    getting around that. If we’re going to ask whether or not meat-eating
    is ethical because it causes animals to die, we also have to ask
    whether or not other common consumptive practices that also cause
    animals to die are ethical:

    Is living in an apartment or a house built on the former homes of a
    dozen different species, several ant colonies, and the site of an
    indigenous people’s encampment from a hundred years ago ethical?

    Is wearing clothing made from conventionally grown cotton that
    required the use of chemical fertilizers whose runoff pollutes rivers,
    lakes, and oceans, thus hurting marine life ethical?

    Is eating pseudo-burgers made of soybeans that hail from monocrop
    farms whose owners razed the land on which they grow, killing families
    of groundhogs and field mice and trillions upon trillions of essential
    microbes that compose the topsoil ethical?

    Animals all die as a result of these practices. Anyone who makes it
    past their first year has blood on their hands. At least the meat-
    eater must face the unavoidable fact that he consumes dead animals
    directly. At least he deals with death head-on, shrink-wrapped though
    it may be. For once the plastic and styrofoam are removed, there it
    is, staring him in the face: a bloody piece of dead animal flesh that
    he is then going to put into his mouth, chew, swallow, and digest.

    Does that make him unethical? Only if anyone who eats anything whose
    production resulted in the death of animals is also unethical. One
    could even argue that since the meat-eater at least acknowledges the
    fact that an animal died for his meal, he’s the more honorable of the
    two.

    And indeed everyone has blood on their hands as a direct or indirect
    result of their choices, consumption habits, and dietary practices.
    Everyone steps on someone else’s toes or hooves or talons or cute
    little paws or flippers or probosci or roots for “selfish” reasons –
    even vegans. If meat-eaters are unethical by virtue of their meat-
    eating, so too is the vegetarian whose grain-based meals came from
    farmers whose tractors crush small mammals and whose cropland disrupts
    entire ecosystems. I don’t think either person’s actions are
    unethical, but I fail to see how someone could think the former was
    unethical without also taking issue with the latter. If you’re going
    to indict eating meat because it kills animals, you also have to
    indict other dietary practices that also kill animals, like grain –
    even if those deaths are “unavoidable” or “accidental.” Sure, the
    farmer may not gleefully set out to murder field mice with his tractor
    (although the rodenticide used in grain elevators might raise a few
    eyebrows), but does it matter if the end result – a bunch of dead
    animals – is the same?

    I eagerly await next week’s “Is Vegetarianism Ethical?” essay contest..
    If you’re going to indict eating meat because it kills animals, you
    must also indict the other dietary practices that kill animals.

    http://www.marksdailyapple.com/is-ea...#axzz1r0b69Ac7


  2. #2
    notbob Guest

    Default Re: Is Eating Meat Ethical?

    On 2012-04-04, ImStillMags <[email protected]> wrote:
    > By now, you?ve probably heard about the essay contest the NY Times is
    > running. The prompt is ?Tell us why it?s ethical to eat meat. I'm
    > posting a reply that fits my thoughts exactly. I didn't write it,
    > Mark Sisson did. He's correct.


    Wait! Lemme fix a ham sandwich before reading.

    nb

    --
    vi --the heart of evil!

  3. #3
    ImStillMags Guest

    Default Re: Is Eating Meat Ethical?

    On Apr 4, 12:45*pm, notbob <not...@nothome.com> wrote:
    >
    > Wait! *Lemme fix a ham sandwich before reading. *




    LOL! exactly.


  4. #4
    meh Guest

    Default Re: Is Eating Meat Ethical?

    On Wed, 4 Apr 2012 12:12:07 -0700 (PDT), ImStillMags <[email protected]> wrote:

    >By now, you’ve probably heard about the essay contest the NY Times is
    >running.


    NO, I haven't, AND I don't WANT to know about it.

    NOT relevant to this group.








  5. #5
    [email protected] Guest

    Default Re: Is Eating Meat Ethical?

    On Apr 4, 3:12*pm, ImStillMags <sitara8...@gmail.com> wrote:
    > By now, you’ve probably heard about the essay contest the NY Times is
    > running. The prompt is “Tell us why it’s ethical to eat meat. * **I'm
    > posting a reply that fits my thoughts exactly. *I didn't write it,
    > Mark Sisson did. *He's correct.
    >
    > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------*--
    >
    > Is eating meat ethical?
    >
    > I find it odd that in their prompt for the essay, the NY Times forbids
    > entrants from mentioning conscientious carnivory, local versus
    > organic, grass-fed versus factory-raised, or sustainable versus
    > unsustainable. In other words, they expect us to simply explain “why
    > it’s ethical to eat meat” without allowing for any of the
    > considerations or external factors that might affect the “ethics” of
    > meat-eating.
    >
    > How do I proceed, absent the ability to actually discuss the nuances?
    > It’s a tough question, but I’ll try.
    >
    > “Ethical” implies that we have a choice. Both dietary choices –
    > omnivory and herbivory – cause animals to die. We have to eat
    > something, and whichever choice we make, animals will die. There’s no
    > getting around that. If we’re going to ask whether or not meat-eating
    > is ethical because it causes animals to die, we also have to ask
    > whether or not other common consumptive practices that also cause
    > animals to die are ethical:
    >
    > Is living in an apartment or a house built on the former homes of a
    > dozen different species, several ant colonies, and the site of an
    > indigenous people’s encampment from a hundred years ago ethical?
    >
    > Is wearing clothing made from conventionally grown cotton that
    > required the use of chemical fertilizers whose runoff pollutes rivers,
    > lakes, and oceans, thus hurting marine life ethical?
    >
    > Is eating pseudo-burgers made of soybeans that hail from monocrop
    > farms whose owners razed the land on which they grow, killing families
    > of groundhogs and field mice and trillions upon trillions of essential
    > microbes that compose the topsoil ethical?
    >
    > Animals all die as a result of these practices. Anyone who makes it
    > past their first year has blood on their hands. At least the meat-
    > eater must face the unavoidable fact that he consumes dead animals
    > directly. At least he deals with death head-on, shrink-wrapped though
    > it may be. For once the plastic and styrofoam are removed, there it
    > is, staring him in the face: a bloody piece of dead animal flesh that
    > he is then going to put into his mouth, chew, swallow, and digest.
    >
    > Does that make him unethical? Only if anyone who eats anything whose
    > production resulted in the death of animals is also unethical. One
    > could even argue that since the meat-eater at least acknowledges the
    > fact that an animal died for his meal, he’s the more honorable of the
    > two.
    >
    > And indeed everyone has blood on their hands as a direct or indirect
    > result of their choices, consumption habits, and dietary practices.
    > Everyone steps on someone else’s toes or hooves or talons or cute
    > little paws or flippers or probosci or roots for “selfish” reasons –
    > even vegans. If meat-eaters are unethical by virtue of their meat-
    > eating, so too is the vegetarian whose grain-based meals came from
    > farmers whose tractors crush small mammals and whose cropland disrupts
    > entire ecosystems. I don’t think either person’s actions are
    > unethical, but I fail to see how someone could think the former was
    > unethical without also taking issue with the latter. *If you’re going
    > to indict eating meat because it kills animals, you also have to
    > indict other dietary practices that also kill animals, like grain –
    > even if those deaths are “unavoidable” or “accidental.” Sure, the
    > farmer may not gleefully set out to murder field mice with his tractor
    > (although the rodenticide used in grain elevators might raise a few
    > eyebrows), but does it matter if the end result – a bunch of dead
    > animals – is the same?
    >
    > I eagerly await next week’s “Is Vegetarianism Ethical?” essay contest.
    > If you’re going to indict eating meat because it kills animals, you
    > must also indict the other dietary practices that kill animals.
    >
    > http://www.marksdailyapple.com/is-ea...#axzz1r0b69Ac7


    I'll tell you why eating meat is ethical. Because it tastes good.

  6. #6
    A Moose in Love Guest

    Default Re: Is Eating Meat Ethical?

    Let's kick it up a notch. Is the killing of seals for their pelts
    ethical? Please note that in Canada sealers are prohibited from
    slaughtering baby seals.
    Sealing is dying here because seals are cuter than pigs and Paul poses
    with them.

  7. #7
    dsi1 Guest

    Default Re: Is Eating Meat Ethical?

    On 4/4/2012 11:30 AM, A Moose in Love wrote:
    > Let's kick it up a notch. Is the killing of seals for their pelts
    > ethical? Please note that in Canada sealers are prohibited from
    > slaughtering baby seals.
    > Sealing is dying here because seals are cuter than pigs and Paul poses
    > with them.


    My guess is that it's not ethical to steal what belongs to another being
    i.e., their bodies. I guess it's OK since a lot of animals kill other
    animals for food too. I gonna feel a lot better when we get that new
    non-conscious meat grown in meat-growing tanks. That will pretty much
    take care of that pesky killin' question.

    I saw Varick Frissell's 1931 movie "The Viking" in TV the other night.
    Holy smokes, old time sealing was really dangerous! You guys really need
    seal farms. :-)

  8. #8
    A Moose in Love Guest

    Default Re: Is Eating Meat Ethical?

    On Apr 4, 5:48*pm, dsi1 <d...@eternal-september.invalid> wrote:
    > On 4/4/2012 11:30 AM, A Moose in Love wrote:
    >
    > > Let's kick it up a notch. *Is the killing of seals for their pelts
    > > ethical? *Please note that in Canada sealers are prohibited from
    > > slaughtering baby seals.
    > > Sealing is dying here because seals are cuter than pigs and Paul poses
    > > with them.

    >
    > My guess is that it's not ethical to steal what belongs to another being
    > i.e., their bodies. I guess it's OK since a lot of animals kill other
    > animals for food too. I gonna feel a lot better when we get that new
    > non-conscious meat grown in meat-growing tanks. That will pretty much
    > take care of that pesky killin' question.
    >
    > I saw Varick Frissell's 1931 movie "The Viking" in TV the other night.
    > Holy smokes, old time sealing was really dangerous! You guys really need
    > seal farms. :-)


    'Zero Kelvin' was a good film. The background being a group of
    Swedish walrus hunters; then it's man against nature, and man against
    man.

  9. #9
    notbob Guest

    Default Re: Is Eating Meat Ethical?

    On 2012-04-04, dsi1 <[email protected]> wrote:
    > On 4/4/2012 11:30 AM, A Moose in Love wrote:
    >> Let's kick it up a notch. Is the killing of seals for their pelts
    >> ethical?


    If it's the only pelt I can use to stay warm, damn straight!

    > My guess is that it's not ethical to steal what belongs to another being
    > i.e., their bodies.


    But, it's OK to pollute the entire World's ecosystem with toxic wastes
    from synthetic fabric, apparel, shoes, etc, and kill wildlife wholesale?

    > I gonna feel a lot better when we get that new non-conscious meat
    > grown in meat-growing tanks.


    Maybe the Bene Tleilax with lease you some of their Axlotl tanks.

    nb

    --
    vi --the heart of evil!

  10. #10
    dsi1 Guest

    Default Re: Is Eating Meat Ethical?

    On 4/4/2012 11:59 AM, A Moose in Love wrote:
    > On Apr 4, 5:48 pm, dsi1<d...@eternal-september.invalid> wrote:
    >> On 4/4/2012 11:30 AM, A Moose in Love wrote:
    >>
    >>> Let's kick it up a notch. Is the killing of seals for their pelts
    >>> ethical? Please note that in Canada sealers are prohibited from
    >>> slaughtering baby seals.
    >>> Sealing is dying here because seals are cuter than pigs and Paul poses
    >>> with them.

    >>
    >> My guess is that it's not ethical to steal what belongs to another being
    >> i.e., their bodies. I guess it's OK since a lot of animals kill other
    >> animals for food too. I gonna feel a lot better when we get that new
    >> non-conscious meat grown in meat-growing tanks. That will pretty much
    >> take care of that pesky killin' question.
    >>
    >> I saw Varick Frissell's 1931 movie "The Viking" in TV the other night.
    >> Holy smokes, old time sealing was really dangerous! You guys really need
    >> seal farms. :-)

    >
    > 'Zero Kelvin' was a good film. The background being a group of
    > Swedish walrus hunters; then it's man against nature, and man against
    > man.


    Well OK then, I'll try to watch it in the next couple of days. Thanks!

  11. #11
    dsi1 Guest

    Default Re: Is Eating Meat Ethical?

    On 4/4/2012 11:59 AM, notbob wrote:
    > On 2012-04-04, dsi1<[email protected]> wrote:
    >> On 4/4/2012 11:30 AM, A Moose in Love wrote:
    >>> Let's kick it up a notch. Is the killing of seals for their pelts
    >>> ethical?

    >
    > If it's the only pelt I can use to stay warm, damn straight!
    >
    >> My guess is that it's not ethical to steal what belongs to another being
    >> i.e., their bodies.

    >
    > But, it's OK to pollute the entire World's ecosystem with toxic wastes
    > from synthetic fabric, apparel, shoes, etc, and kill wildlife wholesale?


    I don't get the connection. Just because I think something is not
    ethical doesn't mean everything else is OK. I made no comment on your
    pet peeves nor will I make any now.

    >
    >> I gonna feel a lot better when we get that new non-conscious meat
    >> grown in meat-growing tanks.

    >
    > Maybe the Bene Tleilax with lease you some of their Axlotl tanks.


    Hopefully they're able to grow some porterhouse in the tanks.

    >
    > nb
    >



  12. #12
    notbob Guest

    Default Re: Is Eating Meat Ethical?

    On 2012-04-04, dsi1 <[email protected]> wrote:

    > ethical doesn't mean everything else is OK. I made no comment on your
    > pet peeves nor will I make any now.


    Good. I didn't wanna hear 'em, anyway.

    Baby harp seal walks into a bar. The bartender say, "What'll ya'
    have?" The baby seal replies, "Anything but Canadian Club."

    nb

    --
    vi --the heart of evil!

  13. #13
    dsi1 Guest

    Default Re: Is Eating Meat Ethical?

    On 4/4/2012 12:22 PM, notbob wrote:
    > On 2012-04-04, dsi1<[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >> ethical doesn't mean everything else is OK. I made no comment on your
    >> pet peeves nor will I make any now.

    >
    > Good. I didn't wanna hear 'em, anyway.


    Precisely!

    >
    > Baby harp seal walks into a bar. The bartender say, "What'll ya'
    > have?" The baby seal replies, "Anything but Canadian Club."


    The bartender says "hey, we don't serve particles of your kind here!" A
    tachyon walks into a bar. :-)

    >
    > nb
    >



  14. #14
    notbob Guest

    Default Re: Is Eating Meat Ethical?

    On 2012-04-04, dsi1 <[email protected]> wrote:

    > The bartender says "hey, we don't serve particles of your kind here!" A
    > tachyon walks into a bar. :-)


    ......to which the bartender mutters, "Could't prove it by me."


    --
    vi --the heart of evil!

  15. #15
    A Moose in Love Guest

    Default Re: Is Eating Meat Ethical?

    On Apr 4, 6:22*pm, notbob <not...@nothome.com> wrote:
    > On 2012-04-04, dsi1 <d...@eternal-september.invalid> wrote:
    >
    > > ethical doesn't mean everything else is OK. I made no comment on your
    > > pet peeves nor will I make any now.

    >
    > Good. *I didn't wanna hear 'em, anyway.
    >
    > Baby harp seal walks into a bar. *The bartender say, "What'll ya'
    > have?" *The baby seal replies, "Anything but Canadian Club."
    >
    > nb
    >
    > --
    > vi --the heart of evil!


    Pretty good. Now in all seriousness, sealers in Canada are not
    allowed to 'harvest' baby seals.

  16. #16
    Nunya Bidnits Guest

    Default Re: Is Eating Meat Ethical?

    ImStillMags <sitara8[email protected]> wrote:

    > I eagerly await next week’s “Is Vegetarianism Ethical?” essay contest.


    I'd love to see that one.

    > If you’re going to indict eating meat because it kills animals, you
    > must also indict the other dietary practices that kill animals.
    >
    > http://www.marksdailyapple.com/is-ea...#axzz1r0b69Ac7


    Veganism kills plants. Is that ethical? Plants are living things too. How is
    it that vegans figure some forms of life can ethically be killed and eaten,
    but others cannot? At precisely what point do you draw the line?

    Just sayin'...

    MartyB



  17. #17
    ImStillMags Guest

    Default Re: Is Eating Meat Ethical?

    On Apr 4, 2:20*pm, meh <y...@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
    > On Wed, 4 Apr 2012 12:12:07 -0700 (PDT), ImStillMags <sitara8...@gmail.com> wrote:
    > >By now, you’ve probably heard about the essay contest the NY Times is
    > >running.

    >
    > NO, I haven't, AND I don't WANT to know about it.
    >
    > NOT relevant to this group.


    Of course it's relevant to this group. There are all types of
    lifestyle followers here, vegans, vegetarians and omnivores.

  18. #18
    ImStillMags Guest

    Default Re: Is Eating Meat Ethical?

    On Apr 4, 2:30*pm, A Moose in Love <parkstreetboo...@gmail.com> wrote:
    > Let's kick it up a notch. *Is the killing of seals for their pelts
    > ethical? *Please note that in Canada sealers are prohibited from
    > slaughtering baby seals.
    > Sealing is dying here because seals are cuter than pigs and Paul poses
    > with them.


    Are you going to eat the seal?

  19. #19
    A Moose in Love Guest

    Default Re: Is Eating Meat Ethical?

    On Apr 4, 7:20*pm, "Nunya Bidnits" <nunyabidn...@eternal-
    september.invalid> wrote:
    > ImStillMags <sitara8...@gmail.com> wrote:
    > > I eagerly await next week’s “Is Vegetarianism Ethical?” essay contest.

    >
    > I'd love to see that one.
    >
    > > If you’re going to indict eating meat because it kills animals, you
    > > must also indict the other dietary practices that kill animals.

    >
    > >http://www.marksdailyapple.com/is-ea...#axzz1r0b69Ac7

    >
    > Veganism kills plants. Is that ethical? Plants are living things too. Howis
    > it that vegans figure some forms of life can ethically be killed and eaten,
    > but others cannot? At precisely what point do you draw the line?
    >
    > Just sayin'...
    >
    > MartyB


    I think they draw the line thusly: Plants do not feel pain, or
    distress when they are being harvested. Maybe they feel a tiny little
    bit, but they don't feel the fear and negative emotions that animal
    slaughter causes. Wheat being harvested vs. a pig getting stuck. Now
    having said that, we always shot our hogs with a .22 hollow point
    before we bled it. It was out of it the whole time.

  20. #20
    A Moose in Love Guest

    Default Re: Is Eating Meat Ethical?

    On Apr 4, 7:47*pm, ImStillMags <sitara8...@gmail.com> wrote:
    > On Apr 4, 2:30*pm, A Moose in Love <parkstreetboo...@gmail.com> wrote:
    >
    > > Let's kick it up a notch. *Is the killing of seals for their pelts
    > > ethical? *Please note that in Canada sealers are prohibited from
    > > slaughtering baby seals.
    > > Sealing is dying here because seals are cuter than pigs and Paul poses
    > > with them.

    >
    > Are you going to eat the seal?


    The Inuit eat seal meat. I understand that it's a horrible meat to
    eat if you are used to western tastes.

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