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Thread: Comparing Italy

  1. #1
    Giusi Guest

    Default Comparing Italy

    http://www.ifitweremyhome.com/compare/US/IT

    I cannot swear that all the statistics are true, but they seem mostly right
    to me. I think health care is cheaper than this says.



  2. #2
    Kent Guest

    Default Re: Comparing Italy


    "Giusi" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]..
    > http://www.ifitweremyhome.com/compare/US/IT
    >
    > I cannot swear that all the statistics are true, but they seem mostly
    > right to me. I think health care is cheaper than this says.
    >

    That's fascinating material! You'd have to know the cost of public service
    to know the total cost of health care. As well, you need to know the
    categories where public service via taxes pay for a fraction of any item.
    I'd never have guessed that the birth rate is less than 2.0 in Italy,
    amongst ethnic Italians. Is the population of Italians in Italy shrinking as
    it is in Germany, France, causacian USA, and Japan?

    I'd sure like to repeat that drive down the Appian Way to Rome years ago and
    all that followed.

    Kent






  3. #3
    Boron Elgar Guest

    Default Re: Comparing Italy

    On Sat, 9 Apr 2011 09:37:43 +0200, "Giusi" <[email protected]> wrote:

    >http://www.ifitweremyhome.com/compare/US/IT
    >
    >I cannot swear that all the statistics are true, but they seem mostly right
    >to me. I think health care is cheaper than this says.
    >


    Wow...it's even more funny when you compare Italy to Germany.

    Boron

  4. #4
    Boron Elgar Guest

    Default Re: Comparing Italy

    On Sat, 09 Apr 2011 08:37:22 -0400, Boron Elgar
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >On Sat, 9 Apr 2011 09:37:43 +0200, "Giusi" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >>http://www.ifitweremyhome.com/compare/US/IT
    >>
    >>I cannot swear that all the statistics are true, but they seem mostly right
    >>to me. I think health care is cheaper than this says.
    >>

    >
    >Wow...it's even more funny when you compare Italy to Germany.
    >
    >Boron



    Oh...here, let me provide the URL for that comparison:

    http://www.ifitweremyhome.com/compare/IT/DE

  5. #5
    Ed Pawlowski Guest

    Default Re: Comparing Italy


    "Giusi" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]..
    > http://www.ifitweremyhome.com/compare/US/IT
    >
    > I cannot swear that all the statistics are true, but they seem mostly
    > right to me. I think health care is cheaper than this says.
    >


    Interesting facts, but the energy is a bit off for practical home use
    comparison. They give total consumption for the country divided by
    population. They are taking energy used for industry and spreading it
    amongst the general population. That includes steel mills, metals
    processing, digging in mines, logging, etc. We have more of that available
    to us in natural resources that most countries in Europe.

    The typical home in Italy does use less energy, but they don't give that
    number for comparison. While most US homes are heated to 66F to 70F in
    winter, I find much lower typical in Europe. Our first time renting an
    apartment in Rosana, the owner turned the heat "up" to 14C. I wondered
    why we were so cold the next morning and did the calculation. That is the
    temperature that we turn our heat "down" to at night. Of course, the price
    of heating oil was about $6.00 US so we did not turn it up very high either.
    Smaller cars, less travelling, etc account for more savings per household
    use, a better indicator. Energy is much cheaper here, another reason we
    use more, be that right or wrong.

    More important are figures on life span, healthcare costs and so forth.
    Another questionable statistic is the likelihood of having HIV/AIDS. With
    my particular lifestyle, it is about 0% no matter where I live. Aside
    from some hospital accident, it is very controllable by the individual.

    They also state there is a 58% less of a class divide and later state:
    Persistent problems include illegal immigration, organized crime,
    corruption, high unemployment, sluggish economic growth, and the low incomes
    and technical standards of southern Italy compared with the prosperous
    north.

    All that said, I'd not mind living in Italy. In general, it is a nicer
    lifestyle, more relaxed. Good food. I'd also want a domestic car like a
    Lambo.


  6. #6
    Steve Pope Guest

    Default Re: Comparing Italy

    In article <inpc6t$b08$[email protected]>, Kent <[email protected]> wrote:

    >"Giusi" <[email protected]> wrote in message


    >> I cannot swear that all the statistics are true, but they seem mostly
    >> right to me. I think health care is cheaper than this says.


    >That's fascinating material! You'd have to know the cost of public service
    >to know the total cost of health care.


    Not really; you'd mostly just have to compare the total dollar
    volume of the two nations' health care systems, and divide by the
    population.

    How much is public vs. privately funded is not directly relevant to the
    average cost per person. What you would have to careful about is
    accounting for imports, exports, and health tourism. (e.g. Americans
    spend some amount of what they spend on healthcare outside of the U.S.)


    Steve

  7. #7
    sf Guest

    Default Re: Comparing Italy

    On Sat, 9 Apr 2011 09:37:43 +0200, "Giusi" <[email protected]> wrote:

    > http://www.ifitweremyhome.com/compare/US/IT
    >
    > I cannot swear that all the statistics are true, but they seem mostly right
    > to me. I think health care is cheaper than this says.
    >


    The amount of money spent in the US during the last six months of life
    is deplorable. Let grandpa die in peace!

    --

    Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut that held its ground.

  8. #8
    Pete C. Guest

    Default Re: Comparing Italy


    sf wrote:
    >
    > On Sat, 9 Apr 2011 09:37:43 +0200, "Giusi" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > > http://www.ifitweremyhome.com/compare/US/IT
    > >
    > > I cannot swear that all the statistics are true, but they seem mostly right
    > > to me. I think health care is cheaper than this says.
    > >

    >
    > The amount of money spent in the US during the last six months of life
    > is deplorable. Let grandpa die in peace!


    Agree, unless it's grandpa's money and that's what he wants.

  9. #9
    Pete C. Guest

    Default Re: Comparing Italy


    "Pete C." wrote:
    >
    > sf wrote:
    > >
    > > On Sat, 9 Apr 2011 09:37:43 +0200, "Giusi" <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >
    > > > http://www.ifitweremyhome.com/compare/US/IT
    > > >
    > > > I cannot swear that all the statistics are true, but they seem mostly right
    > > > to me. I think health care is cheaper than this says.
    > > >

    > >
    > > The amount of money spent in the US during the last six months of life
    > > is deplorable. Let grandpa die in peace!

    >
    > Agree, unless it's grandpa's money and that's what he wants.


    And "grandpa's money" includes the payout of any health insurance he
    paid the premiums on. What should not be happening is huge expenditures
    for EOL care paid by public funds.

    This is one of the places that comparisons between the US and other
    countries health care costs falls apart. In the US, the health care
    spending by wealthy persons on their own health care, either directly or
    by purchasing better insurance is generally factored into the reported
    average health care spending, while in countries with socialized health
    care spending by the wealthy on health care outside the government
    health care system usually isn't included, resulting in the distortion
    that makes it appear that socialized countries spend less on health
    care.

  10. #10
    sf Guest

    Default Re: Comparing Italy

    On Sat, 09 Apr 2011 12:48:00 -0500, "Pete C." <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    >
    > sf wrote:
    > >
    > > On Sat, 9 Apr 2011 09:37:43 +0200, "Giusi" <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >
    > > > http://www.ifitweremyhome.com/compare/US/IT
    > > >
    > > > I cannot swear that all the statistics are true, but they seem mostly right
    > > > to me. I think health care is cheaper than this says.
    > > >

    > >
    > > The amount of money spent in the US during the last six months of life
    > > is deplorable. Let grandpa die in peace!

    >
    > Agree, unless it's grandpa's money and that's what he wants.


    I don't want to belabor this, but usually it's a matter of the living
    not being able to let the dying go in peace.

    --

    Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut that held its ground.

  11. #11
    Pete C. Guest

    Default Re: Comparing Italy


    sf wrote:
    >
    > On Sat, 09 Apr 2011 12:48:00 -0500, "Pete C." <[email protected]>
    > wrote:
    >
    > >
    > > sf wrote:
    > > >
    > > > On Sat, 9 Apr 2011 09:37:43 +0200, "Giusi" <[email protected]> wrote:
    > > >
    > > > > http://www.ifitweremyhome.com/compare/US/IT
    > > > >
    > > > > I cannot swear that all the statistics are true, but they seem mostly right
    > > > > to me. I think health care is cheaper than this says.
    > > > >
    > > >
    > > > The amount of money spent in the US during the last six months of life
    > > > is deplorable. Let grandpa die in peace!

    > >
    > > Agree, unless it's grandpa's money and that's what he wants.

    >
    > I don't want to belabor this, but usually it's a matter of the living
    > not being able to let the dying go in peace.


    Usually, but not always.

  12. #12
    Tom Del Rosso Guest

    Default Re: Comparing Italy


    Pete C. wrote:
    >
    > This is one of the places that comparisons between the US and other
    > countries health care costs falls apart. In the US, the health care
    > spending by wealthy persons on their own health care, either directly
    > or by purchasing better insurance is generally factored into the
    > reported average health care spending, while in countries with
    > socialized health care spending by the wealthy on health care outside
    > the government health care system usually isn't included, resulting
    > in the distortion that makes it appear that socialized countries
    > spend less on health care.


    Yes, and the other big distortion in that silly comparison is in the infant
    mortality numbers. We count premature births - they don't. A direct
    comparison is ridiculous.


    --

    Reply in group, but if emailing add one more
    zero, and remove the last word.



  13. #13
    Kent Guest

    Default Re: Comparing Italy


    "Steve Pope" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:inq37h$o1c$[email protected]..
    > In article <inpc6t$b08$[email protected]>, Kent <[email protected]>
    > wrote:
    >
    >>"Giusi" <[email protected]> wrote in message

    >
    >>> I cannot swear that all the statistics are true, but they seem mostly
    >>> right to me. I think health care is cheaper than this says.

    >
    >>That's fascinating material! You'd have to know the cost of public service
    >>to know the total cost of health care.

    >
    > Not really; you'd mostly just have to compare the total dollar
    > volume of the two nations' health care systems, and divide by the
    > population.
    >
    > How much is public vs. privately funded is not directly relevant to the
    > average cost per person. What you would have to careful about is
    > accounting for imports, exports, and health tourism. (e.g. Americans
    > spend some amount of what they spend on healthcare outside of the U.S.)
    >
    > Steve
    >
    >

    I'm looking at the total cost of health care, that paid privately and that
    paid from public funds. That portion paid pubicly is from taxes.The taxpayer
    is paying the taxes and from that for his healthcare. I think the amount
    Americans pay for health care outside the U.S. is less than 1% of the total
    cost. If you could find that amount, you could add it to the public funds
    and private funds, though I think it's insignificant.

    Kent



  14. #14
    Kent Guest

    Default Re: Comparing Italy


    "sf" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]..
    > On Sat, 09 Apr 2011 12:48:00 -0500, "Pete C." <[email protected]>
    > wrote:
    >
    >>
    >> sf wrote:
    >> >
    >> > On Sat, 9 Apr 2011 09:37:43 +0200, "Giusi" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >> >
    >> > > http://www.ifitweremyhome.com/compare/US/IT
    >> > >
    >> > > I cannot swear that all the statistics are true, but they seem mostly
    >> > > right
    >> > > to me. I think health care is cheaper than this says.
    >> > >
    >> >
    >> > The amount of money spent in the US during the last six months of life
    >> > is deplorable. Let grandpa die in peace!

    >>
    >> Agree, unless it's grandpa's money and that's what he wants.

    >
    > I don't want to belabor this, but usually it's a matter of the living
    > not being able to let the dying go in peace.
    >
    > --

    You should make sure you clearly state that in your "Advanced Care
    Directive" in California.

    Kent



  15. #15
    Tom Del Rosso Guest

    Default Re: Comparing Italy


    Giusi wrote:
    > http://www.ifitweremyhome.com/compare/US/IT
    >
    > I cannot swear that all the statistics are true, but they seem mostly
    > right to me. I think health care is cheaper than this says.


    IF this means that living in Italy is better

    If Italy were your home instead of The United States you would...
    spend 60.84% less money on health care
    Per capita public and private health expenditures combined in Italy are
    $2,631 USD while The United States spends $6,719 USD


    THEN living in Russia is even better than Italy

    If Russia were your home instead of Italy you would...
    spend 73.47% less money on health care
    Per capita public and private health expenditures combined in Russia are
    $698 USD while Italy spends $2,631 USD


    BUT living in Burma is even better than Russia.

    NO WONDER Burma is the immigration capitol of the world.

    If Burma were your home instead of Russia you would...
    spend 96.56% less money on health care
    Per capita public and private health expenditures combined in Burma are $24
    USD while Russia spends $698 USD


    --

    Reply in group, but if emailing add one more
    zero, and remove the last word.



  16. #16
    Steve Pope Guest

    Default Re: Comparing Italy

    In article <inqdk1$8u4$[email protected]>, Kent <[email protected]> wrote:

    >"Steve Pope" <[email protected]> wrote in message


    >> How much is public vs. privately funded is not directly relevant to the
    >> average cost per person. What you would have to careful about is
    >> accounting for imports, exports, and health tourism. (e.g. Americans
    >> spend some amount of what they spend on healthcare outside of the U.S.)


    >I'm looking at the total cost of health care, that paid privately and that
    >paid from public funds. That portion paid pubicly is from taxes.The taxpayer
    >is paying the taxes and from that for his healthcare. I think the amount
    >Americans pay for health care outside the U.S. is less than 1% of the total
    >cost. If you could find that amount, you could add it to the public funds
    >and private funds, though I think it's insignificant.


    Right.

    A common metric is percent of GDP devoted to healthcare, which when
    combined with GDP per person can give you a per-person figure for the
    amount spent on healthcare. But such a figure needs to adjusted for
    imports and exports -- the U.S. consumes a lot of health-care imports
    (including such stuff as latex gloves and syringes) that don't figure
    into the U.S. GDP. Conversely the U.S. exports some healthcare products.
    I suspect the U.S. is a net importer of healthcare products, just
    like it's a net importer of most product sectors.

    I'm not sure how big the health tourism component is. Seems to
    me a lot of dental work and elective surgery is done in latin
    America. This is magnified by the fact the most Americans do
    not have full health coverage.

    It would be a complicated calculation to do entirely correctly.


    Steve

  17. #17
    Giusi Guest

    Default Re: Comparing Italy


    "Ed Pawlowski" <[email protected]> ha scritto nel messaggio >
    > "Giusi" <[email protected]> wrote in message

    http://www.ifitweremyhome.com/compare/US/IT
    >>
    >> I cannot swear that all the statistics are true, but they seem mostly >>
    >> right to me. I think health care is cheaper than this says.
    >>

    >
    > Interesting facts, but the energy is a bit off for practical home use >
    > comparison. They give total consumption for the country divided by
    > population. They are taking energy used for industry and spreading it
    > amongst the general population. That includes steel mills, metals
    > processing, digging in mines, logging, etc. We have more of that
    > available to us in natural resources that most countries in Europe.


    What has that got to do with anything? Really. As it happens, the US
    doesnt actually make much anymore, does it? I could say that about Italy,
    too, to some degree, but Italy is an indistrialized country, does make and
    export products of all kinds, manufactures cars, trucks, planes,
    helicopters, fashion, shoes, signage (almost all the arrival and departure
    signs in the US are Italian) and myriad other things. Your example is
    false. I can hardly find a thing to bring back here that is "made in the
    USA."

    > The typical home in Italy does use less energy, but they don't give that
    > number for comparison. While most US homes are heated to 66F to 70F in
    > winter, I find much lower typical in Europe. Our first time renting an >
    > apartment in Rosana, the owner turned the heat "up" to 14C. I
    > wondered > why we were so cold the next morning and did the calculation.
    > That is the temperature that we turn our heat "down" to at night. Of
    > course, the price of heating oil was about $6.00 US so we did not turn it
    > up very high either.


    BY LAW landlords must between October and April provide heat at 20C. You
    ran into a cheat.

    > Smaller cars, less travelling, etc account for more savings per household
    > use, a better indicator. Energy is much cheaper here, another reason
    > we use more, be that right or wrong.


    Choosing smaller cars and public transport certainly affects these results.
    Look at the other Euro countries, they all use less than the US, but you
    will admit, perhaps that they must be manufacturing things, or the balance
    of payments wouldn't be so out ofwhack? Italians own more cars per head
    than any country in the world, last published count. I find that Italians
    in general travel more than Americans in general. After all, they have 4-6
    weeks of vacation a year to do it in.

    > More important are figures on life span, healthcare costs and so forth.
    > Another questionable statistic is the likelihood of having HIV/AIDS. With
    > my particular lifestyle, it is about 0% no matter where I live. Aside >
    > from some hospital accident, it is very controllable by the individual.
    >
    > They also state there is a 58% less of a class divide and later state:
    > Persistent problems include illegal immigration, organized crime, >
    > corruption, high unemployment, sluggish economic growth, and the low
    > incomes > and technical standards of southern Italy compared with the
    > prosperous north.


    But that is part of the national statistic, which means that some Italians
    are having a lifestyle that is way better than yours. Maybe it's just
    Berlusconi?

    All that said, I'd not mind living in Italy. In general, it is a nicer >
    lifestyle, more relaxed. Good food. I'd also want a domestic car like a
    > Lambo.




  18. #18
    Giusi Guest

    Default Re: Comparing Italy


    "Pete C." <[email protected]> ha scritto nel messaggio
    news:4da09f19$0$2673

    > This is one of the places that comparisons between the US and other
    > countries health care costs falls apart.


    I expect you to prove that's the basis of these figures.

    In the US, the health care
    > spending by wealthy persons on their own health care, either directly or
    > by purchasing better insurance is generally factored into the reported
    > average health care spending, while in countries with socialized health
    > care spending by the wealthy on health care outside the government
    > health care system usually isn't included, resulting in the distortion
    > that makes it appear that socialized countries spend less on health
    > care.


    1) not that many feel they have to buy private or go private, but it isn't
    only wealthy who do it, either. I know many people who get plastic surgery
    and that is out of their pockets.
    2) the health care figure AFAIK includes all expenditure. While a city like
    Rome does have some private hospitals, most of Italy has few if any at all.
    Also, people on the national insurance are sent to private hospitals if they
    need the care offered and the public hospital doesn't have it to offer.

    My neighbors' child is suffering from a vary rare disease of the bones. She
    has had extraordinary care for several years now. If she can get into
    adulthood with all her limbs, she should be okay as it is a disease
    primarily of childhood or adolescence. She has reached the point of needing
    a radical new treatment invented in a famous Rome hospital and only
    available as an experiment. As soon as school is out she is being moved to
    Rome and the national health insurance will pay for the treatment and also
    for hostel type accomodations for a parent at all times until she returns
    home.

    Father is a farmer and mom cooks in a nursery school. Can you imagine that
    scenario in the US? Would she get that treatment? Would she get it only if
    the parents lost their land and home and all savings first?



  19. #19
    J. Clarke Guest

    Default Re: Comparing Italy

    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
    >
    > "Pete C." <[email protected]> ha scritto nel messaggio
    > news:4da09f19$0$2673
    >
    > > This is one of the places that comparisons between the US and other
    > > countries health care costs falls apart.

    >
    > I expect you to prove that's the basis of these figures.
    >
    > In the US, the health care
    > > spending by wealthy persons on their own health care, either directly or
    > > by purchasing better insurance is generally factored into the reported
    > > average health care spending, while in countries with socialized health
    > > care spending by the wealthy on health care outside the government
    > > health care system usually isn't included, resulting in the distortion
    > > that makes it appear that socialized countries spend less on health
    > > care.

    >
    > 1) not that many feel they have to buy private or go private, but it isn't
    > only wealthy who do it, either. I know many people who get plastic surgery
    > and that is out of their pockets.
    > 2) the health care figure AFAIK includes all expenditure. While a city like
    > Rome does have some private hospitals, most of Italy has few if any at all.
    > Also, people on the national insurance are sent to private hospitals if they
    > need the care offered and the public hospital doesn't have it to offer.
    >
    > My neighbors' child is suffering from a vary rare disease of the bones. She
    > has had extraordinary care for several years now. If she can get into
    > adulthood with all her limbs, she should be okay as it is a disease
    > primarily of childhood or adolescence. She has reached the point of needing
    > a radical new treatment invented in a famous Rome hospital and only
    > available as an experiment. As soon as school is out she is being moved to
    > Rome and the national health insurance will pay for the treatment and also
    > for hostel type accomodations for a parent at all times until she returns
    > home.
    >
    > Father is a farmer and mom cooks in a nursery school. Can you imagine that
    > scenario in the US? Would she get that treatment? Would she get it only if
    > the parents lost their land and home and all savings first?


    Depend on the terms of the insurance they have.



  20. #20
    Janet Guest

    Default Re: Comparing Italy

    In article <[email protected] ocal>,
    [email protected] says...
    >
    > In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
    > >
    > > "Pete C." <[email protected]> ha scritto nel messaggio
    > > news:4da09f19$0$2673
    > >
    > > > This is one of the places that comparisons between the US and other
    > > > countries health care costs falls apart.

    > >
    > > I expect you to prove that's the basis of these figures.
    > >
    > > In the US, the health care
    > > > spending by wealthy persons on their own health care, either directly or
    > > > by purchasing better insurance is generally factored into the reported
    > > > average health care spending, while in countries with socialized health
    > > > care spending by the wealthy on health care outside the government
    > > > health care system usually isn't included, resulting in the distortion
    > > > that makes it appear that socialized countries spend less on health
    > > > care.

    > >
    > > 1) not that many feel they have to buy private or go private, but it isn't
    > > only wealthy who do it, either. I know many people who get plastic surgery
    > > and that is out of their pockets.
    > > 2) the health care figure AFAIK includes all expenditure. While a city like
    > > Rome does have some private hospitals, most of Italy has few if any at all.
    > > Also, people on the national insurance are sent to private hospitals if they
    > > need the care offered and the public hospital doesn't have it to offer.
    > >
    > > My neighbors' child is suffering from a vary rare disease of the bones. She
    > > has had extraordinary care for several years now. If she can get into
    > > adulthood with all her limbs, she should be okay as it is a disease
    > > primarily of childhood or adolescence. She has reached the point of needing
    > > a radical new treatment invented in a famous Rome hospital and only
    > > available as an experiment. As soon as school is out she is being moved to
    > > Rome and the national health insurance will pay for the treatment and also
    > > for hostel type accomodations for a parent at all times until she returns
    > > home.
    > >
    > > Father is a farmer and mom cooks in a nursery school. Can you imagine that
    > > scenario in the US? Would she get that treatment? Would she get it only if
    > > the parents lost their land and home and all savings first?

    >
    > Depend on the terms of the insurance they have.


    Could US couples in similar work/similar income afford health insurance
    that would provide that level of care for years?

    Janet

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