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Thread: Comments on Thanksgiving

  1. #1
    Pete Guest

    Default Comments on Thanksgiving

    Giusi wrote:

    > Thanksgiving is a feast of excesses. Too much food, too much fat,
    > too many calories, and depending on the part of the country you are
    > in, there are all kinds of senseless additions that reflect some
    > tradition you and no one else can recall.
    >
    > The base meal is foods of autumn where autumn is cold. Turkey is the
    > center, but these days some include a ham, although this is weeks
    > ahead of pork killing and months before a ham would be cured and it
    > really belongs at Easter. With the turket, in or next to it, is
    > stuffing. Families have divided and neighborhood wars begun over
    > what should be in that. Even what would seem the innocent gravy
    > engenders arguments-- chopped giblets in it? chopped hard cooked
    > rggs? browned flour thickening? corn starch? potato starch? Is it
    > made from stock one makes from the neck and innards? Oe is it
    > stirred up from the brown bits left in the pan? Liquored up or not?
    >
    > If you have survived all this it means that all your near and dear
    > are from the same area or maybe even the same family in some zones.
    > And that means you can decide which autumn vegetables are served.
    > Cranberry sauce made in at least 1 of 10 different ways are a
    > necessary choice. Even if no one in the house likes it, you serve
    > it. Mashed potatoes will be missed if they are not there. Sweet
    > potatoes are often considered necessary, but they are also made
    > inedible with syrups, sugars and marshmallows. Feed that to the pigs
    > so they'll be good and fat next month.
    >
    > Onions are autumnal, and so are turnips, swedes, beets, carrots,
    > cabbage and broccoli, so surprisingly many choose these days to
    > prepare an overcooked casserole of green (french) beans which are
    > totally out of season. Their lack of freshness is concealed in
    > condensed mushroom soup topped by vacuum tinned fried onions. Only
    > baked macaroni and cheese seems stranger to me than this slimy
    > casserole, and in the South macaroni and cheese is common.
    >
    > There must be bread in the form of rolls, even if it would be
    > suicidal to eat one. A relish tray harks back to the 19th century
    > with celery sticks, pickles and stuffed olives. Some feel this must
    > also include stuffed eggs, as if the proteins of the rest of the meal
    > may not be adequate.
    >
    > It's a matter of interest which wine the counselors are counseling
    > this year. Given enough Bourbon before the meal whatever is chosen
    > will be fine with you.
    >
    > At last you have consumed the requisite 5 pounds of fatty and spiced
    > foods and you are allowed to retire to the kitchen to scrape plates
    > and wash dishes. Leftovers may be carefully parceled out for guests
    > to take some home, or they may be resigned to the fridge because you
    > have to feed these people sandwiches later made with all that they
    > ate for lunch.
    >
    > Ahhhh... but no, it's not over. There was once pumpkin pie yet to
    > eat after a brief respite, but nowadays the picky few who don't like
    > it have begged choices and you now are presented with pumpkin pie,
    > pumpkin chiffon pie, pumpkin cheesecake, apple pie, pecan pie and any
    > other pie that is the favorirte of any family member. Occasionally
    > someone throws in brownies. God help you if you fail to eat a bit of
    > everything, because the one who made, it as well as his children,
    > spouse and dogs will hate you forever. The only exception is pumpkin
    > pie for some reason... you are allowed to hate that, but if you are
    > not on record as hating it, eat some because all of the above applies
    > in spades for you.
    >
    > Now you can rest and watch or avoid football while cracking nuts and
    > drinking baking soda concoctions. This lasts a few hours until
    > sandwich time. White bread with turkey, stuffing, mashed potatoes,
    > cranberry sauce, lettuce and mayonnaise. Take that, furriner!
    >
    > It's our favorite holiday. It's the one we all celebrate and it
    > causes the busiest travel days of the year as people scurry to get
    > over the river and through the woods to grandmother's house. God
    > help us all.


    Giusi posted the above to uk.food+drink.misc

    Do any of you have any comments on Thanksgiving after reading that?

    ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

  2. #2
    =?iso-8859-1?B?VEZNrg==?= Guest

    Default Re: Comments on Thanksgiving



    "Pete" <[email protected]> wrote

    > Giusi posted the above to uk.food+drink.misc
    >
    > Do any of you have any comments on Thanksgiving after reading that?



    Yeah. I'm still full from the feast I had about noonish.

    Happy Thanksgiving to all.

    TFM®


  3. #3
    Dave Smith Guest

    Default Re: Comments on Thanksgiving

    Pete wrote:
    > Giusi wrote:
    >
    >> Thanksgiving is a feast of excesses. Too much food, too much fat,
    >> too many calories, and depending on the part of the country you are
    >> in, there are all kinds of senseless additions that reflect some
    >> tradition you and no one else can recall.
    >>
    >> The base meal is foods of autumn where autumn is cold. Turkey is the
    >> center, but these days some include a ham, although this is weeks
    >> ahead of pork killing and months before a ham would be cured and it
    >> really belongs at Easter. With the turket, in or next to it, is
    >> stuffing. Families have divided and neighborhood wars begun over
    >> what should be in that. Even what would seem the innocent gravy
    >> engenders arguments-- chopped giblets in it? chopped hard cooked
    >> rggs? browned flour thickening? corn starch? potato starch? Is it
    >> made from stock one makes from the neck and innards? Oe is it
    >> stirred up from the brown bits left in the pan? Liquored up or not?
    >>
    >> If you have survived all this it means that all your near and dear
    >> are from the same area or maybe even the same family in some zones.
    >> And that means you can decide which autumn vegetables are served.
    >> Cranberry sauce made in at least 1 of 10 different ways are a
    >> necessary choice. Even if no one in the house likes it, you serve
    >> it. Mashed potatoes will be missed if they are not there. Sweet
    >> potatoes are often considered necessary, but they are also made
    >> inedible with syrups, sugars and marshmallows. Feed that to the pigs
    >> so they'll be good and fat next month.
    >>
    >> Onions are autumnal, and so are turnips, swedes, beets, carrots,
    >> cabbage and broccoli, so surprisingly many choose these days to
    >> prepare an overcooked casserole of green (french) beans which are
    >> totally out of season. Their lack of freshness is concealed in
    >> condensed mushroom soup topped by vacuum tinned fried onions. Only
    >> baked macaroni and cheese seems stranger to me than this slimy
    >> casserole, and in the South macaroni and cheese is common.
    >>
    >> There must be bread in the form of rolls, even if it would be
    >> suicidal to eat one. A relish tray harks back to the 19th century
    >> with celery sticks, pickles and stuffed olives. Some feel this must
    >> also include stuffed eggs, as if the proteins of the rest of the meal
    >> may not be adequate.
    >>
    >> It's a matter of interest which wine the counselors are counseling
    >> this year. Given enough Bourbon before the meal whatever is chosen
    >> will be fine with you.
    >>
    >> At last you have consumed the requisite 5 pounds of fatty and spiced
    >> foods and you are allowed to retire to the kitchen to scrape plates
    >> and wash dishes. Leftovers may be carefully parceled out for guests
    >> to take some home, or they may be resigned to the fridge because you
    >> have to feed these people sandwiches later made with all that they
    >> ate for lunch.
    >>
    >> Ahhhh... but no, it's not over. There was once pumpkin pie yet to
    >> eat after a brief respite, but nowadays the picky few who don't like
    >> it have begged choices and you now are presented with pumpkin pie,
    >> pumpkin chiffon pie, pumpkin cheesecake, apple pie, pecan pie and any
    >> other pie that is the favorirte of any family member. Occasionally
    >> someone throws in brownies. God help you if you fail to eat a bit of
    >> everything, because the one who made, it as well as his children,
    >> spouse and dogs will hate you forever. The only exception is pumpkin
    >> pie for some reason... you are allowed to hate that, but if you are
    >> not on record as hating it, eat some because all of the above applies
    >> in spades for you.
    >>
    >> Now you can rest and watch or avoid football while cracking nuts and
    >> drinking baking soda concoctions. This lasts a few hours until
    >> sandwich time. White bread with turkey, stuffing, mashed potatoes,
    >> cranberry sauce, lettuce and mayonnaise. Take that, furriner!
    >>
    >> It's our favorite holiday. It's the one we all celebrate and it
    >> causes the busiest travel days of the year as people scurry to get
    >> over the river and through the woods to grandmother's house. God
    >> help us all.

    >
    > Giusi posted the above to uk.food+drink.misc
    >
    > Do any of you have any comments on Thanksgiving after reading that?



    Yeah....Thanksgiving is a great time for families to gather and have a
    great feast together. I would disagree about it being a tradition that
    no one can recall. While the North American culture has changed a lot
    over the last half century thanks to widened immigration, when I was a
    kid it was a celebration of the harvest, and many Canadians like myself
    have English and American (Loyalist) roots and trace it back to the
    Massachusetts colony, which incidentally, included my wife's ancestors,
    as well as Barak Obama's.

  4. #4
    Sqwertz Guest

    Default Re: Comments on Thanksgiving

    Dave Smith <[email protected]> wrote:

    > Yeah....Thanksgiving is a great time for families to gather and have a
    > great feast together. I would disagree about it being a tradition that
    > no one can recall. While the North American culture has changed a lot
    > over the last half century thanks to widened immigration, when I was a
    > kid it was a celebration of the harvest, and many Canadians like myself
    > have English and American (Loyalist) roots and trace it back to the
    > Massachusetts colony, which incidentally, included my wife's ancestors,
    > as well as Barak Obama's.


    Exact that Thangiving was born in Texas, not in Massachusetts.

    -sw (from Framingham, MA)

  5. #5
    Dan Abel Guest

    Default Re: Comments on Thanksgiving

    In article <a47c2$492f46c5$[email protected]>,
    "Pete" <[email protected]> wrote:

    > Giusi wrote:
    >
    > > Thanksgiving is a feast of excesses. Too much food, too much fat,
    > > too many calories, and depending on the part of the country you are
    > > in, there are all kinds of senseless additions that reflect some
    > > tradition you and no one else can recall.


    [big snip]

    > > It's our favorite holiday. It's the one we all celebrate and it
    > > causes the busiest travel days of the year as people scurry to get
    > > over the river and through the woods to grandmother's house. God
    > > help us all.

    >
    > Giusi posted the above to uk.food+drink.misc
    >
    > Do any of you have any comments on Thanksgiving after reading that?


    Sounds like she's homesick to me. Hope you had a good one, Giusi!

    --
    Dan Abel
    Petaluma, California USA
    [email protected]

  6. #6
    cybercat Guest

    Default Re: Comments on Thanksgiving


    "Pete" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > Do any of you have any comments on Thanksgiving after reading that?
    >


    Very nicely written, and full of astute observations. The best part, though,
    for me, was the irony of an Italian expounding upon silly traditions. God
    love them.


    ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

  7. #7
    Gloria P Guest

    Default Re: Comments on Thanksgiving

    Sqwertz wrote:
    > Dave Smith <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >> Yeah....Thanksgiving is a great time for families to gather and have a
    >> great feast together. I would disagree about it being a tradition that
    >> no one can recall. While the North American culture has changed a lot
    >> over the last half century thanks to widened immigration, when I was a
    >> kid it was a celebration of the harvest, and many Canadians like myself
    >> have English and American (Loyalist) roots and trace it back to the
    >> Massachusetts colony, which incidentally, included my wife's ancestors,
    >> as well as Barak Obama's.

    >
    > Exact that Thangiving was born in Texas, not in Massachusetts.
    >
    > -sw (from Framingham, MA)



    HUH? Have you never been to Plymoutn Rock? Plimoth Plantation?
    Thanksgiving was being celebrated there while Texas was nothing but
    armadillos.

    gloria p
    (from Fairhaven, MA)

  8. #8
    Bob Terwilliger Guest

    Default Re: Comments on Thanksgiving

    cybertwat wrote:

    >> Do any of you have any comments on Thanksgiving after reading that?
    >>

    >
    > Very nicely written, and full of astute observations. The best part,
    > though, for me, was the irony of an Italian expounding upon silly
    > traditions. God love them.


    The funniest part of this thread was when cybertwat wrote about Giusi as if
    Giusi had been born and raised in Italy, oblivious to the facts of the
    matter.

    Bob




  9. #9
    Wayne Boatwright Guest

    Default Re: Comments on Thanksgiving

    On Thu 27 Nov 2008 09:10:27p, Gloria P told us...

    > Sqwertz wrote:
    >> Dave Smith <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>
    >>> Yeah....Thanksgiving is a great time for families to gather and have a
    >>> great feast together. I would disagree about it being a tradition that
    >>> no one can recall. While the North American culture has changed a lot
    >>> over the last half century thanks to widened immigration, when I was a
    >>> kid it was a celebration of the harvest, and many Canadians like myself
    >>> have English and American (Loyalist) roots and trace it back to the
    >>> Massachusetts colony, which incidentally, included my wife's ancestors,
    >>> as well as Barak Obama's.

    >>
    >> Exact that Thangiving was born in Texas, not in Massachusetts.
    >>
    >> -sw (from Framingham, MA)

    >
    >
    > HUH? Have you never been to Plymoutn Rock? Plimoth Plantation?
    > Thanksgiving was being celebrated there while Texas was nothing but
    > armadillos.
    >
    > gloria p
    > (from Fairhaven, MA)
    >


    Steve is either an idiot or an ass, or maybe an idiotic ass. He’s getting as
    bad as Sheldon with his inaccuracies.

    Wasn’t Texas actually part of Mexico at the time of the first Thanksgiving?

    --
    Wayne Boatwright
    (correct the spelling of "geemail" to reply)
    ************************************************** **********************
    Date: Thursday, 11(XI)/27(XXVII)/08(MMVIII)
    ************************************************** **********************
    Today is: Thanksgiving Day (U.S.)
    ************************************************** **********************
    Be nice to other people, they outnumber you 5.5 billion to 1.
    ************************************************** **********************



  10. #10
    Sqwertz Guest

    Default Re: Comments on Thanksgiving

    Gloria P <[email protected]> wrote:

    > Sqwertz wrote:
    >
    > Thanksgiving was born in Texas, not in Massachusetts.
    >>
    >> -sw (from Framingham, MA)

    >
    > HUH? Have you never been to Plymoutn Rock? Plimoth Plantation?
    > Thanksgiving was being celebrated there while Texas was nothing but
    > armadillos.


    Heh. That was a good one :-)

    I've been to every famous rock in the United States. And Plymouth
    Rock was the most disappointing rock I've ever seen.

    But the fact reminds that TX celebrated Thanksgiving, as Americans,
    a full 20 years earlier than anyone in MA.

    -sw

  11. #11
    Wayne Boatwright Guest

    Default Re: Comments on Thanksgiving

    On Thu 27 Nov 2008 09:23:22p, Bob Terwilliger told us...

    > cybertwat wrote:
    >
    >>> Do any of you have any comments on Thanksgiving after reading that?
    >>>

    >>
    >> Very nicely written, and full of astute observations. The best part,
    >> though, for me, was the irony of an Italian expounding upon silly
    >> traditions. God love them.

    >
    > The funniest part of this thread was when cybertwat wrote about Giusi as

    if
    > Giusi had been born and raised in Italy, oblivious to the facts of the
    > matter.
    >
    > Bob


    I was always under the impression that cybercat was oblivious to life in
    general, and anything factual specifically. <g>


    --
    Wayne Boatwright
    (correct the spelling of "geemail" to reply)
    ************************************************** **********************
    Date: Thursday, 11(XI)/27(XXVII)/08(MMVIII)
    ************************************************** **********************
    Today is: Thanksgiving Day (U.S.)
    ************************************************** **********************
    All probabilities are 50%. Either a thing will happen or it won't.
    This is especially true when dealing with someone you're attracted to.
    ************************************************** **********************


  12. #12
    Sqwertz Guest

    Default Re: Comments on Thanksgiving

    Wayne Boatwright <[email protected]> wrote:

    > Wasn’t Texas actually part of Mexico at the time of the first Thanksgiving?


    <chuckle>

    And you think Massachusetts was in the United States at
    that time? Mexico didn't even exist back then, either.

    Duh.

    http://hnn.us/articles/406.html

    And just for TFM, I'm rooting for Florida, too:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thanksgiving#United_States

    -sw

  13. #13
    Christine Dabney Guest

    Default Re: Comments on Thanksgiving

    On Thu, 27 Nov 2008 21:10:27 -0700, Gloria P <[email protected]>
    wrote:


    >HUH? Have you never been to Plymoutn Rock? Plimoth Plantation?
    >Thanksgiving was being celebrated there while Texas was nothing but
    >armadillos.
    >
    >gloria p
    >(from Fairhaven, MA)


    And we down south of you in Virginia, had it even before you all...

    Christine, smirking

  14. #14
    Giusi Guest

    Default Re: Comments on Thanksgiving

    "Pete"
    > Giusi wrote:
    >
    >> Thanksgiving is a feast of excesses. Too much food, too much fat,>> too
    >> many calories, and depending on the part of the country you are>> in,
    >> there are all kinds of senseless additions that reflect some>> tradition
    >> you and no one else can recall.


    > Giusi posted the above to uk.food+drink.misc
    >
    > Do any of you have any comments on Thanksgiving after reading that?


    Now Pete, you know I dislike crossposting except in the most unusual
    circumstances. This wouldn't be one.

    It happens I am from New England and my family has been celebrating the
    harvest since 1620. I am allowed to gently poke fun at us for this most
    personal and familiar feast of our year. You may certainly try as well.



  15. #15
    Gregory Morrow Guest

    Default Re: Comments on Thanksgiving


    Wayne Boatwright wrote:

    > On Thu 27 Nov 2008 09:23:22p, Bob Terwilliger told us...
    >
    > > cybertwat wrote:
    > >
    > >>> Do any of you have any comments on Thanksgiving after reading that?
    > >>>
    > >>
    > >> Very nicely written, and full of astute observations. The best part,
    > >> though, for me, was the irony of an Italian expounding upon silly
    > >> traditions. God love them.

    > >
    > > The funniest part of this thread was when cybertwat wrote about Giusi as

    > if
    > > Giusi had been born and raised in Italy, oblivious to the facts of the
    > > matter.
    > >
    > > Bob

    >
    > I was always under the impression that cybercat was oblivious to life in
    > general, and anything factual specifically. <g>



    Heehee...and then there is her "cooking", Wayne...

    --
    --
    Best
    Greg

    " I find Greg Morrow lowbrow, witless, and obnoxious. For him to claim that
    we are some
    kind of comedy team turns my stomach."
    - "cybercat" to me on rec.food.cooking



  16. #16
    Lou Decruss Guest

    Default Re: Comments on Thanksgiving

    On Thu, 27 Nov 2008 22:33:27 -0600, Sqwertz <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    >Gloria P <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >> Sqwertz wrote:
    >>
    >> Thanksgiving was born in Texas, not in Massachusetts.
    >>>
    >>> -sw (from Framingham, MA)

    >>
    >> HUH? Have you never been to Plymoutn Rock? Plimoth Plantation?
    >> Thanksgiving was being celebrated there while Texas was nothing but
    >> armadillos.

    >
    >Heh. That was a good one :-)
    >
    >I've been to every famous rock in the United States.


    Been here?

    http://www.starvedrockstatepark.org/

    Lou

  17. #17
    Dave Smith Guest

    Default Re: Comments on Thanksgiving

    Wayne Boatwright wrote:
    > On Thu 27 Nov 2008 09:10:27p, Gloria P told us...
    >
    >> Sqwertz wrote:
    >>> Dave Smith <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> Yeah....Thanksgiving is a great time for families to gather and have a
    >>>> great feast together. I would disagree about it being a tradition that
    >>>> no one can recall. While the North American culture has changed a lot
    >>>> over the last half century thanks to widened immigration, when I was a
    >>>> kid it was a celebration of the harvest, and many Canadians like myself
    >>>> have English and American (Loyalist) roots and trace it back to the
    >>>> Massachusetts colony, which incidentally, included my wife's ancestors,
    >>>> as well as Barak Obama's.
    >>> Exact that Thangiving was born in Texas, not in Massachusetts.
    >>>
    >>> -sw (from Framingham, MA)

    >>
    >> HUH? Have you never been to Plymoutn Rock? Plimoth Plantation?
    >> Thanksgiving was being celebrated there while Texas was nothing but
    >> armadillos.
    >>
    >> gloria p
    >> (from Fairhaven, MA)
    >>

    >
    > Steve is either an idiot or an ass, or maybe an idiotic ass. He’s getting as
    > bad as Sheldon with his inaccuracies.
    >
    > Wasn’t Texas actually part of Mexico at the time of the first Thanksgiving?


    Dang I hate it when people rely on facts to confuse fools.
    It was indeed part of Mexico until they made the mistake of allowing
    American settlers in, who then revolted and formed their own republic,
    unlike the general belief that Mexico invaded.



  18. #18
    Dave Smith Guest

    Default Re: Comments on Thanksgiving

    Christine Dabney wrote:
    > On Thu, 27 Nov 2008 21:10:27 -0700, Gloria P <[email protected]>
    > wrote:
    >
    >
    >> HUH? Have you never been to Plymoutn Rock? Plimoth Plantation?
    >> Thanksgiving was being celebrated there while Texas was nothing but
    >> armadillos.
    >>
    >> gloria p
    >> (from Fairhaven, MA)

    >
    > And we down south of you in Virginia, had it even before you all...


    FWIW... Virginia originally extended form North Carolina all the way to
    Maine, so the Pilgrims celebrated their Thanksgiving in Virginia.

  19. #19
    Wayne Boatwright Guest

    Default Re: Comments on Thanksgiving

    On Fri 28 Nov 2008 01:01:11p, Dave Smith told us...

    > Wayne Boatwright wrote:
    >> On Thu 27 Nov 2008 09:10:27p, Gloria P told us...
    >>
    >>> Sqwertz wrote:
    >>>> Dave Smith <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> Yeah....Thanksgiving is a great time for families to gather and have
    >>>>> a great feast together. I would disagree about it being a tradition
    >>>>> that no one can recall. While the North American culture has changed
    >>>>> a lot over the last half century thanks to widened immigration, when
    >>>>> I was a kid it was a celebration of the harvest, and many Canadians
    >>>>> like myself have English and American (Loyalist) roots and trace it
    >>>>> back to the Massachusetts colony, which incidentally, included my
    >>>>> wife's ancestors, as well as Barak Obama's.
    >>>> Exact that Thangiving was born in Texas, not in Massachusetts.
    >>>>
    >>>> -sw (from Framingham, MA)
    >>>
    >>> HUH? Have you never been to Plymoutn Rock? Plimoth Plantation?
    >>> Thanksgiving was being celebrated there while Texas was nothing but
    >>> armadillos.
    >>>
    >>> gloria p
    >>> (from Fairhaven, MA)
    >>>

    >>
    >> Steve is either an idiot or an ass, or maybe an idiotic ass. He’s
    >> getting as bad as Sheldon with his inaccuracies.
    >>
    >> Wasn’t Texas actually part of Mexico at the time of the first
    >> Thanksgiving?

    >
    > Dang I hate it when people rely on facts to confuse fools.
    > It was indeed part of Mexico until they made the mistake of allowing
    > American settlers in, who then revolted and formed their own republic,
    > unlike the general belief that Mexico invaded.


    I knew I could count on you to provide the detail. ;-)


    --
    Wayne Boatwright
    (correct the spelling of "geemail" to reply)
    ************************************************** **********************
    Date: Friday, 11(XI)/28(XXVIII)/08(MMVIII)
    ************************************************** **********************
    Today is: Day After Thanksgiving
    Countdown till Christmas Day
    3wks 5dys 10hrs 10mins
    ************************************************** **********************
    'Bad knee, gotta run.' --Pat Buchanan to his draft board.
    ************************************************** **********************

  20. #20
    Sqwertz Guest

    Default Re: Comments on Thanksgiving

    Dave Smith <[email protected]> wrote:

    >>> HUH? Have you never been to Plymoutn Rock? Plimoth Plantation?
    >>> Thanksgiving was being celebrated there while Texas was nothing but
    >>> armadillos.
    >>>
    >>> gloria p
    >>> (from Fairhaven, MA)
    >>>

    >>
    >> Steve is either an idiot or an ass, or maybe an idiotic ass. He¢s getting as
    >> bad as Sheldon with his inaccuracies.
    >>
    >> Wasn¢t Texas actually part of Mexico at the time of the first Thanksgiving?

    >
    > Dang I hate it when people rely on facts to confuse fools.


    And another idiot who thinks there was a Texas, Mexico, and a United
    States at the time of the first Thanksgiving(s).

    Duh.

    Dude - this is like 4th and 5th grade American (and Mexican) History
    we're talking about here.

    -sw

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