Thread: TN Oppenheimer Kreuz Gewurztraminer Auslese 1971

On Mar 16, 4:30*pm, cwdjrxyz <spamtr...@cwdjr.info> wrote:
> The wine was Oppenheimer Kreuz Gewurztraminer Auslese 1971, Carl
> Sittman, A.P Nr. 4 387 165 66 72. This is a rather old estate dating
> back to 1612. The wine won the Silberne Kammer Preismunze,
> Weinpramuerung 1973 , Landwirtschatleskammer, Rheinland-Pfalz. I
> bought the wine in the mid 70s for now nearly unbelievable US$ 4.39.
> It has been stored properly since. The fill was very high, and there
> were no cork or other issues. The fact that Gewurztraminer from
> Germany was not well known in the US then likely contributed to the
> low price, although Germany has long made such wine, much of which is
> rather average.
>
> The color is now bright gold with hints of old gold. The wine is quite
> sweet, but has enough acid to balance. It is very much a German style
> in contrast to the less sweet and more alcoholic style of most late
> harvest wines from Alsace not far away. It has both intense bouquet
> and taste. There is none of the petrol character of an old Riesling.
> It reminds me a bit of a 3P Tokaji Aszu in how it has aged, but
> without the oxidation apparent in much Tokaji Aszu. *In addition,
> there is an intense spice component which gives meaning to the
> "gewurz" portion of the grape name. I would not be surprised if a top
> German Riesling auslese from 1971 had held so well, but I did not
> expect this wine to be so long lasting when I bought it.
>
> The year 1971 was great for all levels of Riesling in Germany. It
> would appear that some other grapes also did very well. Although 1959
> and 1976 made more very rich late harvest wines, some of their
> kabinett and spatlese wines were not exceptional in these very hot
> years. To make a poor wine, especially Riesling, in 1971 required
> either a very bad winemaker or a very poor and untended vineyard
> indeed.

thanks for note. I've only run across a few German Gewurztraminers.
Sittman is a new producer to me.

On Mar 16, 5:50*pm, DaleW <Dwmi...@aol.com> wrote:
> On Mar 16, 4:30*pm, cwdjrxyz <spamtr...@cwdjr.info> wrote:
>
>
>
> > The wine was Oppenheimer Kreuz Gewurztraminer Auslese 1971, Carl
> > Sittman, A.P Nr. 4 387 165 66 72. This is a rather old estate dating
> > back to 1612. The wine won the Silberne Kammer Preismunze,
> > Weinpramuerung 1973 , Landwirtschatleskammer, Rheinland-Pfalz. I
> > bought the wine in the mid 70s for now nearly unbelievable US$ 4.39.
> > It has been stored properly since. The fill was very high, and there
> > were no cork or other issues. The fact that Gewurztraminer from
> > Germany was not well known in the US then likely contributed to the
> > low price, although Germany has long made such wine, much of which is
> > rather average.
>
> > The color is now bright gold with hints of old gold. The wine is quite
> > sweet, but has enough acid to balance. It is very much a German style
> > in contrast to the less sweet and more alcoholic style of most late
> > harvest wines from Alsace not far away. It has both intense bouquet
> > and taste. There is none of the petrol character of an old Riesling.
> > It reminds me a bit of a 3P Tokaji Aszu in how it has aged, but
> > without the oxidation apparent in much Tokaji Aszu. *In addition,
> > there is an intense spice component which gives meaning to the
> > "gewurz" portion of the grape name. I would not be surprised if a top
> > German Riesling auslese from 1971 had held so well, but I did not
> > expect this wine to be so long lasting when I bought it.
>
> > The year 1971 was great for all levels of Riesling in Germany. It
> > would appear that some other grapes also did very well. Although 1959
> > and 1976 made more very rich late harvest wines, some of their
> > kabinett and spatlese wines were not exceptional in these very hot
> > years. To make a poor wine, especially Riesling, in 1971 required
> > either a very bad winemaker or a very poor and untended vineyard
> > indeed.
>
> thanks for note. I've only run across a few German Gewurztraminers.
> Sittman is a new producer to me.

I left off a final "s". It is Carl Sittmann. Looking at the 3rd
edition of Lichine's New Encyclopedia of Wines & Spirits(1981), I find
Sittmann on a short list of Oppenheim wine estates. There were, at
least in 1981, hundreds of owners in the Rheinhessen, and even Lichine
mentions only a limited number of the better estates. Lichine comments
that Oppenheimers are likely to surpass Niersteiners in dry hot years,
and the reverse is likely in wet, cool years. I have not seen any
Oppenheimer Gewurztraminers in my area since the mid 70s, but then I
did not make a serious effort to find any.

Lichine also mentions that Gewurztraminer had nearly died out in the
Rheinhessen; however it was starting to be grown again in small
amounts around Bingen and below Oppenheim. The 1971 Sittmann I had was
imported from a firm in the Houston TX area and may not have been
widely available in the US.

"cwdjrxyz" <[email protected]> skrev i melding
news:[email protected]..
> The wine was Oppenheimer Kreuz Gewurztraminer Auslese 1971, Carl
> Sittman, A.P Nr. 4 387 165 66 72. This is a rather old estate dating
> back to 1612.
Hi,
I have to confess that I'd never heard about this winery... My normal
sources did not include that name. Googling around I found a German wine
forum where a German poster had failed in locating it.
It appears that Sittman is a Weinkellerei, i.e. a bulk blender, little known
in Germany. Someone had tried a supermarket bottle, labeled Sittman, with
bottler given as 'Peter Mertes, Bernkastel-Kues'.
His verdict was 'not very good'...

BUT - that Oppenheimer Kreuz Auslese simply proves that you CAN get solid
German wine from unknown sources!

Finally: Carl Sittmann was a winery owner born 1852 in Rüsselsheim, died
1931 in Wiesbaden. He took part in working with the first German Wine Law.
He transferred the estate to his sons in 1919. It produces a sekt called
"Söhnleinsekt", unknown to me, but apparently available in Germany.
Anders

"Anders Tørneskog" <[email protected]> skrev i melding
news:49bf98a7$0$7902$[email protected]..
>
> . It produces a sekt called "Söhnleinsekt", unknown to me, but apparently
> available in Germany.
That link is unsubstantiated... I see that the Söhnlein seems to be an
independent company and that the sekt is well known in the low end of the
German market.
Anders

"Anders Tørneskog" <[email protected]> wrote:

>> It produces a sekt called "Söhnleinsekt", unknown to me, but
>> apparently available in Germany.

> That link is unsubstantiated... I see that the Söhnlein seems
> to be an independent company and that the sekt is well known in
> the low end of the German market.

Not independent any more, acquired by Henkell in 2003, then called
"Henkell & Söhnlein".

Homepage: <www.henkell.de/>

German Wiki: <de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henkell_&_Co._Sektkellerei>

M.

On Mar 17, 8:34*am, "Anders Tørneskog" <sredna.goksen...@i2c.ten>
wrote:
> "cwdjrxyz" <spamtr...@cwdjr.info> skrev i meldingnews:[email protected]..> The wine was Oppenheimer Kreuz Gewurztraminer Auslese 1971, Carl
> > Sittman, A.P Nr. 4 387 165 66 72. This is a rather old estate dating
> > back to 1612.
>
> Hi,
> I have to confess that I'd never heard about this winery... My normal
> sources did not include that name. *Googling around I found a German wine
> forum where a German poster had failed in locating it.
> It appears that Sittman is a Weinkellerei, i.e. a bulk blender, little known
> in Germany. *Someone had tried a supermarket bottle, labeled Sittman, with
> bottler given as 'Peter Mertes, Bernkastel-Kues'.
> His verdict was 'not very good'...
>
> BUT - that Oppenheimer Kreuz Auslese simply proves that you CAN get solid
> German wine from unknown sources!
>
> Finally: Carl Sittmann was a winery owner born 1852 in Rüsselsheim, died
> 1931 in Wiesbaden. *He took part in working with the first German Wine Law.
> He transferred the estate to his sons in 1919. It produces a sekt called
> "Söhnleinsekt", unknown to me, but apparently available in Germany.
> Anders

Cellartracker only lists a couple of generic Rieslings recently from
Carl Sittman, don't look like QmP wines. But there are a couple of
older ones from specific Rheinhessen vineyards. Wonder if the name was
just bought.

On Mar 17, 7:34*am, "Anders Tørneskog" <sredna.goksen...@i2c.ten>
wrote:
> "cwdjrxyz" <spamtr...@cwdjr.info> skrev i meldingnews:[email protected]..> The wine was Oppenheimer Kreuz Gewurztraminer Auslese 1971, Carl
> > Sittman, A.P Nr. 4 387 165 66 72. This is a rather old estate dating
> > back to 1612.
>
> Hi,
> I have to confess that I'd never heard about this winery... My normal
> sources did not include that name. *Googling around I found a German wine
> forum where a German poster had failed in locating it.
> It appears that Sittman is a Weinkellerei, i.e. a bulk blender, little known
> in Germany. *Someone had tried a supermarket bottle, labeled Sittman, with
> bottler given as 'Peter Mertes, Bernkastel-Kues'.
> His verdict was 'not very good'...
>
> BUT - that Oppenheimer Kreuz Auslese simply proves that you CAN get solid
> German wine from unknown sources!
>
> Finally: Carl Sittmann was a winery owner born 1852 in Rüsselsheim, died
> 1931 in Wiesbaden. *He took part in working with the first German Wine Law.
> He transferred the estate to his sons in 1919. It produces a sekt called
> "Söhnleinsekt", unknown to me, but apparently available in Germany.

There may have been some changes since 1971. I will give additional
label information.

Carl Sittmann; Opppenheim Rh.
Weinguter ; Weinkellereien
Erzeuger-Abfullung
verliehen Anno 1612
1971er
Oppenheimer Kreuz
Gewurztraminer Auslese
Qualitatswein mit Pradikat
Amtliche Prufungsnummer 4 387 165 66 72
Inported by: Bon Vin, Inc., Houston/Texas
Shipped by Carl Sittmann, Oppenheim am Rhein
Net Contents: 1 Pt. 8 FL. Ozs. - Light still Rhine Wine
Alcohol: 10% to 12% by volume - Product of Germany

The silver prize is mentioned on a small silver strip label above the
main label

If the label information is correct, Sittmann was shipping wine back
then and in fact shipped the wine I had. However the label also says
Erzeuger-Abfullung. This meant bottled by the producer. More recently,
this is being changed so that coops will still use this term, but
gutsabfullung will be used for private estates. Thus in 1971 either
the wine came from Sittman owned Kreuz vineyard portions or from some
unnamed estate/coop (but I do not know if this would be legal in
1971). Also the use of Weinguter on the label seems to indicate that
Sittmann owned at least some estate vineyard property and was not just
a shipper.

I have no idea if the 1612 date refers to the founding of an estate or
shipper. However, it would not surprise me if several family members
had the name Carl Sittmann since 1612.

"cwdjrxyz" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:3ea206f1-fc12-47a7-a9ce-> Hi,


>If the label information is correct, Sittmann was shipping wine back
>then and in fact shipped the wine I had. However the label also says
>Erzeuger-Abfullung. This meant bottled by the producer. More recently,
>this is being changed so that coops will still use this term, but
>gutsabfullung will be used for private estates. Thus in 1971 either
>the wine came from Sittman owned Kreuz vineyard portions or from some
>unnamed estate/coop (but I do not know if this would be legal in
>1971). Also the use of Weinguter on the label seems to indicate that
>Sittmann owned at least some estate vineyard property and was not just
>a shipper.

>I have no idea if the 1612 date refers to the founding of an estate or
>shipper. However, it would not surprise me if several family members
>had the name Carl Sittmann since 1612.

I found the following reference in Hugh Johnson's book 'Wine Companion'
1st Ed 1983, ISBN 0 86399 003 7. Page263.

Weinguter Carl Sittmann
Wormserstrasse 61, 6504 Oppenheim. Owner: Dr Liselotte Itschner.
Nearly 250 acres in Nierstein, Oppenheim, Alsheim and Dienheim, in
a score of Einzellagen.
The biggest private estate in the district, inherited by the granddaughter
of the founder, who also runs a big merchant house under the name Dr.
Itschner. The vines are 20% Muller Thurgau, 16% Silvaner, 14% Kerner,
12% Reisling. Wines from the best sites are matured in casks: Oppenhiemer
Sacktrager makes splendid Ausleses. Wiessherbst ( rose ) under the Grosslage
name Alsheimer Rheinblick is a specialty. Prices from DM 3.00.

The later 1992 3rd ed ISBN 0 85533 892 X
is the same except for:

Nearly 200 acres. Einzellagen: Alsheimer-Goldberg, Fruhmesse, Romerberg;
Oppenheimer-Herrenberg, Sacktrager; Dienheimer-Falkenberg, Paterhof.
Einzellagen also in Neirstein.


Note to Nils.............re Shiraz and Pinot Gris.

I've been re-reading select parts of another Hugh Johnson book - 'The Story
of Wine'. 1989 ed ISBN 0 85533 696 X
to see if your questions are answered. Your requests are too precise to have
answered by Johnson, but I'm greatly enjoying the background provided;
war, politics, church, death, taxes etc around the planting and spread of
vines across Europe. Thanks for the prompting your questions provided.

cheers greybeard
who is relaxing with a glass of Ch. Mourgues du Gres 07, Les Galets Roses,
Costieres de Nimes. Autumn, 24C afternoon, with NZ vs India cricket on the
radio. (pity we're getting our (collective) butts kicked)

"greybeard" <[email protected]> skrev i melding
news:gpppkf$d9j$[email protected]..
>
> Weinguter Carl Sittmann
> Wormserstrasse 61, 6504 Oppenheim. Owner: Dr Liselotte Itschner.
>
Thanks for that reference - it led me to
http://books.google.no/books?id=_sm0...sult#PPA128,M1

and to my surprise it told about Weingut Carl Sittmann in detail. With
holdings of 200 acres it is a very large operation by German standards and
production should be in the vicinity of 700-800,000 bottles a year. The
family coat of arms is from 1612, but apparently the estate is from 1879.
Grapes are 37%Sylvaner, 18%Riesling, 15%Müller-Thurgau, 10%Ruländer and
10%Gewürztraminer with a smattering of minor grapes making up the rest.
Today's owner is a granddaughter of the founder. Marketing is by wholesale
only.

Anders

"Anders Tørneskog" <[email protected]> skrev i melding
news:49c0c86d$0$7901$[email protected]..
>
I have to add that the book is from 1976...

Anders