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Thread: Sticker shock

  1. #1
    Mark Lipton Guest

    Default Sticker shock

    I just saw some estimated prices for the much ballyhooed '09 Bdx wines.
    It's been a few years since I last paid much attention to new releases
    of Bdx, but my first reaction was one of shock. First growth pricing
    was consistently at $1000-2000 per bottle and many former (relative)
    bargains such as Montrose and Pichon-Lalande are going for $300-350 a
    bottle. Granted, there were a few standouts such as Gruaud-Larose and
    Leoville-Barton that still had reasonable pricing, but they were the
    rare exception. It was not that long ago that most of these wines were
    retailing for 1/4-1/5 of their current prices.

    Some of this is the result of RMP's hype:
    <http://www.independent.co.uk/money/spend-save/wine-investors-raise-a-glass-to-the-2009-bordeaux-7553609.html>

    but that only explains a fraction of the overall effect. So, has it
    been demand from China that's fueled this rise? Growing demand and
    limited supply?

    Cornfuzzedly yours,
    Mark Lipton

    --
    alt.food.wine FAQ: http://winefaq.cwdjr.net

  2. #2
    lleichtman Guest

    Default Re: Sticker shock

    On Apr 24, 1:30*pm, Mark Lipton <not...@eudrup.ude> wrote:
    > I just saw some estimated prices for the much ballyhooed '09 Bdx wines.
    > *It's been a few years since I last paid much attention to new releases
    > of Bdx, but my first reaction was one of shock. *First growth pricing
    > was consistently at $1000-2000 per bottle and many former (relative)
    > bargains such as Montrose and Pichon-Lalande are going for $300-350 a
    > bottle. *Granted, there were a few standouts such as Gruaud-Larose and
    > Leoville-Barton that still had reasonable pricing, but they were the
    > rare exception. *It was not that long ago that most of these wines were
    > retailing for 1/4-1/5 of their current prices.
    >
    > Some of this is the result of RMP's hype:
    > <http://www.independent.co.uk/money/spend-save/wine-investors-raise-a-...>
    >
    > but that only explains a fraction of the overall effect. *So, has it
    > been demand from China that's fueled this rise? *Growing demand and
    > limited supply?
    >
    > Cornfuzzedly yours,
    > Mark Lipton
    >
    > --
    > alt.food.wine FAQ: *http://winefaq.cwdjr.net


    Well, I guess I won't be buying any top tier growths. Hope this
    doesn't extend down the line. Looks like the Chinese are really
    skewing the market.

  3. #3
    cwdjrxyz Guest

    Default Re: Sticker shock

    On Apr 24, 2:30*pm, Mark Lipton <not...@eudrup.ude> wrote:
    > I just saw some estimated prices for the much ballyhooed '09 Bdx wines.
    > *It's been a few years since I last paid much attention to new releases
    > of Bdx, but my first reaction was one of shock. *First growth pricing
    > was consistently at $1000-2000 per bottle and many former (relative)
    > bargains such as Montrose and Pichon-Lalande are going for $300-350 a
    > bottle. *Granted, there were a few standouts such as Gruaud-Larose and
    > Leoville-Barton that still had reasonable pricing, but they were the
    > rare exception. *It was not that long ago that most of these wines were
    > retailing for 1/4-1/5 of their current prices.
    >
    > Some of this is the result of RMP's hype:
    > <http://www.independent.co.uk/money/spend-save/wine-investors-raise-a-...>
    >
    > but that only explains a fraction of the overall effect. *So, has it
    > been demand from China that's fueled this rise? *Growing demand and
    > limited supply?

    I recently received a spring catalog from Brown Derby that gave prices
    for several recent vintages of higher end Bordeaux wines. It seems
    elevated prices are here to stay. Yes increased demand from China and
    several other nations in Asia no doubt has something to do with high
    prices. In general rich persons in Asia are much more likely to be
    willing to pay very high prices for rare food and drink than are many
    Americans, for example. For example, if you are the CEO of a major
    Bank in Asia, you would not want to serve an important guest or client
    anything other than the "best", whatever that is. This attitude likely
    was responsible for Lafite being priced well above other first
    growths, and even average vintages of Lafite brought a very high
    price. Many Asian Lafite drinkers have moved on to other "best" wines,
    such as DRC Romanee-Conti and La Tache, and the prices of these wines
    have increased an extreme amount recently. Such wines were already
    very expensive because of very low production and huge demand.

    Even in the US, demand for fine wines has greatly increase from when I
    was young. Then a Martini lunch was much more common than a fine wine
    lunch. You might have a cheap Chianti in an Italian restaurant. Of
    course there were some fine restaurants, often French, then that had
    large cellars of fine aged wines, but these mainly were in a few large
    cities.


  4. #4
    DaleW Guest

    Default Re: Sticker shock

    On Tuesday, April 24, 2012 3:30:09 PM UTC-4, Mark Lipton wrote:
    > I just saw some estimated prices for the much ballyhooed '09 Bdx wines.
    > It's been a few years since I last paid much attention to new releases
    > of Bdx, but my first reaction was one of shock. First growth pricing
    > was consistently at $1000-2000 per bottle and many former (relative)
    > bargains such as Montrose and Pichon-Lalande are going for $300-350 a
    > bottle. Granted, there were a few standouts such as Gruaud-Larose and
    > Leoville-Barton that still had reasonable pricing, but they were the
    > rare exception. It was not that long ago that most of these wines were
    > retailing for 1/4-1/5 of their current prices.
    >
    > Some of this is the result of RMP's hype:
    > <http://www.independent.co.uk/money/spend-save/wine-investors-raise-a-glass-to-the-2009-bordeaux-7553609.html>
    >
    > but that only explains a fraction of the overall effect. So, has it
    > been demand from China that's fueled this rise? Growing demand and
    > limited supply?
    >
    > Cornfuzzedly yours,
    > Mark Lipton
    >
    > --
    > alt.food.wine FAQ: http://winefaq.cwdjr.net


    I think the scariest thing is that it's so bad that $80/Gruaud and $90-$110/LeoBarton are being held up as reasonable!
    I paid $45 for highly ballyhooed 2003 Barton (04 same price)
    2001 was last Gruaud I bought, $28.
    Those are definitely outpacing inflation!

  5. #5
    lleichtman Guest

    Default Re: Sticker shock

    On Apr 24, 8:29*pm, cwdjrxyz <spamtr...@cwdjr.info> wrote:
    > On Apr 24, 2:30*pm, Mark Lipton <not...@eudrup.ude> wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > > I just saw some estimated prices for the much ballyhooed '09 Bdx wines.
    > > *It's been a few years since I last paid much attention to new releases
    > > of Bdx, but my first reaction was one of shock. *First growth pricing
    > > was consistently at $1000-2000 per bottle and many former (relative)
    > > bargains such as Montrose and Pichon-Lalande are going for $300-350 a
    > > bottle. *Granted, there were a few standouts such as Gruaud-Larose and
    > > Leoville-Barton that still had reasonable pricing, but they were the
    > > rare exception. *It was not that long ago that most of these wines were
    > > retailing for 1/4-1/5 of their current prices.

    >
    > > Some of this is the result of RMP's hype:
    > > <http://www.independent.co.uk/money/spend-save/wine-investors-raise-a-....>

    >
    > > but that only explains a fraction of the overall effect. *So, has it
    > > been demand from China that's fueled this rise? *Growing demand and
    > > limited supply?

    >
    > I recently received a spring catalog from Brown Derby that gave prices
    > for several recent vintages of higher end Bordeaux wines. It seems
    > elevated prices are here to stay. Yes increased demand from China and
    > several other nations in Asia no doubt has something to do with high
    > prices. In general rich persons in Asia are much more likely to be
    > willing to pay very high prices for rare food and drink than are many
    > Americans, for example. For example, if you are the CEO of a major
    > Bank in Asia, you would not want to serve an important guest or client
    > anything other than the "best", whatever that is. This attitude likely
    > was responsible for Lafite being priced well above other first
    > growths, and even average vintages of Lafite brought a very high
    > price. Many Asian Lafite drinkers have moved on to other "best" wines,
    > such as DRC Romanee-Conti and La Tache, and the prices of these wines
    > have increased an extreme amount recently. Such wines were already
    > very expensive because of very low production and huge demand.
    >
    > Even in the US, demand for fine wines has greatly increase from when I
    > was young. Then a Martini lunch was much more common than a fine wine
    > lunch. You might have a cheap Chianti in an Italian restaurant. Of
    > course there were some fine restaurants, often French, then that had
    > large cellars of fine aged wines, but these mainly were in a few large
    > cities.


    And this is contributing to the high rate of counterfeit high end
    French wines in China and elsewhere in Asia.

  6. #6
    Mark Lipton Guest

    Default Re: Sticker shock

    On 4/25/12 9:23 AM, DaleW wrote:

    > I think the scariest thing is that it's so bad that $80/Gruaud and
    > $90-$110/LeoBarton are being held up as reasonable! I paid $45 for
    > highly ballyhooed 2003 Barton (04 same price) 2001 was last Gruaud I
    > bought, $28. Those are definitely outpacing inflation!


    Hmmm... I think that the estimated prices I saw were lower than those
    ($50-60 IIRC) but your point is still well taken. It is now the rare
    Grand Cru Classé that retails for less than three digits. As much as I
    love some of the Cru Bourgeois, it still pains me that so many of these
    wines are now out of reach for me and, by extension, with the vast
    majority of the wine drinking public. Oh, well.

    Mark Lipton
    --
    alt.food.wine FAQ: http://winefaq.cwdjr.net

  7. #7
    DaleW Guest

    Default Re: Sticker shock

    On Wednesday, April 25, 2012 11:32:38 AM UTC-4, Mark Lipton wrote:
    > On 4/25/12 9:23 AM, DaleW wrote:
    >
    > > I think the scariest thing is that it's so bad that $80/Gruaud and
    > > $90-$110/LeoBarton are being held up as reasonable! I paid $45 for
    > > highly ballyhooed 2003 Barton (04 same price) 2001 was last Gruaud I
    > > bought, $28. Those are definitely outpacing inflation!

    >
    > Hmmm... I think that the estimated prices I saw were lower than those
    > ($50-60 IIRC) but your point is still well taken. It is now the rare
    > Grand Cru Classé that retails for less than three digits. As much as I
    > love some of the Cru Bourgeois, it still pains me that so many of these
    > wines are now out of reach for me and, by extension, with the vast
    > majority of the wine drinking public. Oh, well.
    >
    > Mark Lipton
    > --
    > alt.food.wine FAQ: http://winefaq.cwdjr.net


    This is EP release time, 2011s are coming out now, 2009s have been on actual market for roughly 2 years
    Lowest place that will actually have:
    Barton Now PC $89, last year PC $89, 2 years ago Barton not released*
    Gruaud Now PJs has for $63, but then big jump to $80 at PC, so I'd be interested if PJs will still confirm at that price. Last year JJB $63, 2 years ago PC $57.

    *WS Pro only gives 1 mon, 2 mo, 3 mo, 1 yr, 2 yr, 3 yr, 4 yr options. I'll try to remember to check 2 yr next week, should show Barton

  8. #8
    Bi!! Guest

    Default Re: Sticker shock

    On Apr 25, 12:02*pm, DaleW <Dwmi...@aol.com> wrote:
    > On Wednesday, April 25, 2012 11:32:38 AM UTC-4, Mark Lipton wrote:
    > > On 4/25/12 9:23 AM, DaleW wrote:

    >
    > > > I think the scariest thing is that it's so bad that $80/Gruaud and
    > > > $90-$110/LeoBarton are being held up as reasonable! I paid $45 for
    > > > highly ballyhooed 2003 Barton (04 same price) 2001 was last Gruaud I
    > > > bought, $28. Those are definitely outpacing inflation!

    >
    > > Hmmm... I think that the estimated prices I saw were lower than those
    > > ($50-60 IIRC) but your point is still well taken. *It is now the rare
    > > Grand Cru Classé that retails for less than three digits. *As much as I
    > > love some of the Cru Bourgeois, it still pains me that so many of these
    > > wines are now out of reach for me and, by extension, with the vast
    > > majority of the wine drinking public. *Oh, well.

    >
    > > Mark Lipton
    > > --
    > > alt.food.wine FAQ: *http://winefaq.cwdjr.net

    >
    > This is EP release time, 2011s are coming out now, 2009s have been on actual market for roughly 2 years
    > Lowest place that will actually have:
    > Barton Now PC $89, last year PC $89, 2 years ago Barton not released*
    > Gruaud Now PJs has for $63, but then big jump to $80 at PC, so I'd be interested if PJs will still confirm at that price. Last year JJB $63, 2 yearsago PC $57.
    >
    > *WS Pro only gives 1 mon, 2 mo, 3 mo, 1 yr, 2 yr, 3 yr, 4 yr options. I'll try to remember to check 2 yr next week, should show Barton- Hide quoted text -
    >
    > - Show quoted text -


    I quit Bordeaux in 2005. Figured I could get more bang for my buck
    elsewhere and at age 60 I wasn't going to each maturity with my
    bottles anyway.

  9. #9
    lleichtman Guest

    Default Re: Sticker shock

    On Apr 25, 11:35*am, "Bi!!" <rvwr...@aol.com> wrote:
    > On Apr 25, 12:02*pm, DaleW <Dwmi...@aol.com> wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > > On Wednesday, April 25, 2012 11:32:38 AM UTC-4, Mark Lipton wrote:
    > > > On 4/25/12 9:23 AM, DaleW wrote:

    >
    > > > > I think the scariest thing is that it's so bad that $80/Gruaud and
    > > > > $90-$110/LeoBarton are being held up as reasonable! I paid $45 for
    > > > > highly ballyhooed 2003 Barton (04 same price) 2001 was last Gruaud I
    > > > > bought, $28. Those are definitely outpacing inflation!

    >
    > > > Hmmm... I think that the estimated prices I saw were lower than those
    > > > ($50-60 IIRC) but your point is still well taken. *It is now the rare
    > > > Grand Cru Classé that retails for less than three digits. *As much as I
    > > > love some of the Cru Bourgeois, it still pains me that so many of these
    > > > wines are now out of reach for me and, by extension, with the vast
    > > > majority of the wine drinking public. *Oh, well.

    >
    > > > Mark Lipton
    > > > --
    > > > alt.food.wine FAQ: *http://winefaq.cwdjr.net

    >
    > > This is EP release time, 2011s are coming out now, 2009s have been on actual market for roughly 2 years
    > > Lowest place that will actually have:
    > > Barton Now PC $89, last year PC $89, 2 years ago Barton not released*
    > > Gruaud Now PJs has for $63, but then big jump to $80 at PC, so I'd be interested if PJs will still confirm at that price. Last year JJB $63, 2 years ago PC $57.

    >
    > > *WS Pro only gives 1 mon, 2 mo, 3 mo, 1 yr, 2 yr, 3 yr, 4 yr options. I'll try to remember to check 2 yr next week, should show Barton- Hide quoted text -

    >
    > > - Show quoted text -

    >
    > I quit Bordeaux in 2005. *Figured I could get more bang for my buck
    > elsewhere and at age 60 I wasn't going to each maturity with my
    > bottles anyway.


    I'm with you here. Not buying any wines that need 20 years of age as I
    may never drink them.

  10. #10
    Bi!! Guest

    Default Re: Sticker shock

    On Apr 25, 2:30*pm, lleichtman <larryleicht...@gmail.com> wrote:
    > On Apr 25, 11:35*am, "Bi!!" <rvwr...@aol.com> wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > > On Apr 25, 12:02*pm, DaleW <Dwmi...@aol.com> wrote:

    >
    > > > On Wednesday, April 25, 2012 11:32:38 AM UTC-4, Mark Lipton wrote:
    > > > > On 4/25/12 9:23 AM, DaleW wrote:

    >
    > > > > > I think the scariest thing is that it's so bad that $80/Gruaud and
    > > > > > $90-$110/LeoBarton are being held up as reasonable! I paid $45for
    > > > > > highly ballyhooed 2003 Barton (04 same price) 2001 was last Gruaud I
    > > > > > bought, $28. Those are definitely outpacing inflation!

    >
    > > > > Hmmm... I think that the estimated prices I saw were lower than those
    > > > > ($50-60 IIRC) but your point is still well taken. *It is now the rare
    > > > > Grand Cru Classé that retails for less than three digits. *As much as I
    > > > > love some of the Cru Bourgeois, it still pains me that so many of these
    > > > > wines are now out of reach for me and, by extension, with the vast
    > > > > majority of the wine drinking public. *Oh, well.

    >
    > > > > Mark Lipton
    > > > > --
    > > > > alt.food.wine FAQ: *http://winefaq.cwdjr.net

    >
    > > > This is EP release time, 2011s are coming out now, 2009s have been onactual market for roughly 2 years
    > > > Lowest place that will actually have:
    > > > Barton Now PC $89, last year PC $89, 2 years ago Barton not released*
    > > > Gruaud Now PJs has for $63, but then big jump to $80 at PC, so I'd beinterested if PJs will still confirm at that price. Last year JJB $63, 2 years ago PC $57.

    >
    > > > *WS Pro only gives 1 mon, 2 mo, 3 mo, 1 yr, 2 yr, 3 yr, 4 yr options.I'll try to remember to check 2 yr next week, should show Barton- Hide quoted text -

    >
    > > > - Show quoted text -

    >
    > > I quit Bordeaux in 2005. *Figured I could get more bang for my buck
    > > elsewhere and at age 60 I wasn't going to each maturity with my
    > > bottles anyway.

    >
    > I'm with you here. Not buying any wines that need 20 years of age as I
    > may never drink them.- Hide quoted text -
    >
    > - Show quoted text -


    I guess that's the wine geeks way of saying don't buy green bananas!

  11. #11
    Mark Lipton Guest

    Default Re: Sticker shock

    On 4/25/12 3:00 PM, Bi!! wrote:

    >>> I quit Bordeaux in 2005. Figured I could get more bang for my buck
    >>> elsewhere and at age 60 I wasn't going to each maturity with my
    >>> bottles anyway.

    >>
    >> I'm with you here. Not buying any wines that need 20 years of age as I
    >> may never drink them.- Hide quoted text -
    >>
    >> - Show quoted text -

    >
    > I guess that's the wine geeks way of saying don't buy green bananas!


    Not that I'm trying to dissuade either of you, but when I look at my CT
    data, I find that the _latest_ start date for a drinking window of any
    of the wines in my cellar is 2020 (for, of all things, a 2007 Stony
    Hills Chardonnay!). That means that all of the wines I now own will be
    drinkable (according to CT, which usually underestimates readiness to my
    tastes) before I turn 65 -- even my Dunn Howell Mountains! ;-) Unless
    one is buying old school Barolo or Madiran or First Growth Bordeaux
    (bringing this thread full circle) I don't see many wines that wouldn't
    be approachable at the very least in 5 years' time. Now, the bang for
    the buck argument I understand all too well.

    Mark Lipton

    --
    alt.food.wine FAQ: http://winefaq.cwdjr.net

  12. #12
    lleichtman Guest

    Default Re: Sticker shock

    On Apr 25, 1:16*pm, Mark Lipton <not...@eudrup.ude> wrote:
    > On 4/25/12 3:00 PM, Bi!! wrote:
    >
    > >>> I quit Bordeaux in 2005. *Figured I could get more bang for my buck
    > >>> elsewhere and at age 60 I wasn't going to each maturity with my
    > >>> bottles anyway.

    >
    > >> I'm with you here. Not buying any wines that need 20 years of age as I
    > >> may never drink them.- Hide quoted text -

    >
    > >> - Show quoted text -

    >
    > > I guess that's the wine geeks way of saying don't buy green bananas!

    >
    > Not that I'm trying to dissuade either of you, but when I look at my CT
    > data, I find that the _latest_ start date for a drinking window of any
    > of the wines in my cellar is 2020 (for, of all things, a 2007 Stony
    > Hills Chardonnay!). *That means that all of the wines I now own will be
    > drinkable (according to CT, which usually underestimates readiness to my
    > tastes) before I turn 65 -- even my Dunn Howell Mountains! ;-) *Unless
    > one is buying old school Barolo or Madiran or First Growth Bordeaux
    > (bringing this thread full circle) I don't see many wines that wouldn't
    > be approachable at the very least in 5 years' time. *Now, the bang for
    > the buck argument I understand all too well.
    >
    > Mark Lipton
    >
    > --
    > alt.food.wine FAQ: *http://winefaq.cwdjr.net


    Well 2020 is only pushing it a tad but the price points still are
    daunting. Can do better elsewhere even in France than these.

  13. #13
    Bi!! Guest

    Default Re: Sticker shock

    On Apr 25, 3:16*pm, Mark Lipton <not...@eudrup.ude> wrote:
    > On 4/25/12 3:00 PM, Bi!! wrote:
    >
    > >>> I quit Bordeaux in 2005. *Figured I could get more bang for my buck
    > >>> elsewhere and at age 60 I wasn't going to each maturity with my
    > >>> bottles anyway.

    >
    > >> I'm with you here. Not buying any wines that need 20 years of age as I
    > >> may never drink them.- Hide quoted text -

    >
    > >> - Show quoted text -

    >
    > > I guess that's the wine geeks way of saying don't buy green bananas!

    >
    > Not that I'm trying to dissuade either of you, but when I look at my CT
    > data, I find that the _latest_ start date for a drinking window of any
    > of the wines in my cellar is 2020 (for, of all things, a 2007 Stony
    > Hills Chardonnay!). *That means that all of the wines I now own will be
    > drinkable (according to CT, which usually underestimates readiness to my
    > tastes) before I turn 65 -- even my Dunn Howell Mountains! ;-) *Unless
    > one is buying old school Barolo or Madiran or First Growth Bordeaux
    > (bringing this thread full circle) I don't see many wines that wouldn't
    > be approachable at the very least in 5 years' time. *Now, the bang for
    > the buck argument I understand all too well.
    >
    > Mark Lipton
    >
    > --
    > alt.food.wine FAQ: *http://winefaq.cwdjr.net


    Hi Mark. Much of that was just tongue in cheek....you to will be over
    60 some day!! ;-) I was really referring to the classified stuff that
    I used to buy in case lots...I had stopped buying first growths a few
    years prior when pricing jumped in the 2000 vintage. I find that many
    classified Bordeaux in the "great" vintage years ( and I don't know
    what that means anymore since it seems that every other year is the
    vintage of the century) need at least 10 years in the cellar for my
    tastes but I'm just now drinking Cal Cabs from the mid to late 90's as
    well as many Rhone and Bordeaux wines.

  14. #14
    Mark Lipton Guest

    Default Re: Sticker shock

    On 4/26/12 1:24 PM, Bi!! wrote:

    > Hi Mark. Much of that was just tongue in cheek....you to will be over
    > 60 some day!! ;-) I was really referring to the classified stuff that
    > I used to buy in case lots...I had stopped buying first growths a few
    > years prior when pricing jumped in the 2000 vintage. I find that many
    > classified Bordeaux in the "great" vintage years ( and I don't know
    > what that means anymore since it seems that every other year is the
    > vintage of the century) need at least 10 years in the cellar for my
    > tastes but I'm just now drinking Cal Cabs from the mid to late 90's as
    > well as many Rhone and Bordeaux wines.


    Yeah, I figured as much, Bill, but just had to weigh in anyway.
    Clearly, the solution is for me to find my way out to Columbus to help
    you polish some of those wines lingering in your cellar! ;-) For the
    most part, I agree with you. More and more I am shying away from the
    "great" vintages in favor of the "leaner" years, for reasons of taste,
    pricing and life expectancy ;-)

    Mark Lipton


    --
    alt.food.wine FAQ: http://winefaq.cwdjr.net

  15. #15
    lleichtman Guest

    Default Re: Sticker shock

    On Apr 26, 11:24*am, "Bi!!" <rvwr...@aol.com> wrote:
    > On Apr 25, 3:16*pm, Mark Lipton <not...@eudrup.ude> wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > > On 4/25/12 3:00 PM, Bi!! wrote:

    >
    > > >>> I quit Bordeaux in 2005. *Figured I could get more bang for my buck
    > > >>> elsewhere and at age 60 I wasn't going to each maturity with my
    > > >>> bottles anyway.

    >
    > > >> I'm with you here. Not buying any wines that need 20 years of age asI
    > > >> may never drink them.- Hide quoted text -

    >
    > > >> - Show quoted text -

    >
    > > > I guess that's the wine geeks way of saying don't buy green bananas!

    >
    > > Not that I'm trying to dissuade either of you, but when I look at my CT
    > > data, I find that the _latest_ start date for a drinking window of any
    > > of the wines in my cellar is 2020 (for, of all things, a 2007 Stony
    > > Hills Chardonnay!). *That means that all of the wines I now own will be
    > > drinkable (according to CT, which usually underestimates readiness to my
    > > tastes) before I turn 65 -- even my Dunn Howell Mountains! ;-) *Unless
    > > one is buying old school Barolo or Madiran or First Growth Bordeaux
    > > (bringing this thread full circle) I don't see many wines that wouldn't
    > > be approachable at the very least in 5 years' time. *Now, the bang for
    > > the buck argument I understand all too well.

    >
    > > Mark Lipton

    >
    > > --
    > > alt.food.wine FAQ: *http://winefaq.cwdjr.net

    >
    > Hi Mark. Much of that was just tongue in cheek....you to will be over
    > 60 some day!! *;-) I was really referring to the classified stuff that
    > I used to buy in case lots...I had stopped buying first growths a few
    > years prior when pricing jumped in the 2000 vintage. *I find that many
    > classified Bordeaux in the "great" vintage years ( and I don't know
    > what that means anymore since it seems that every other year is the
    > vintage of the century) need at least 10 years in the cellar for my
    > tastes but I'm just now drinking Cal Cabs from the mid to late 90's as
    > well as many Rhone and Bordeaux wines.


    Since I only have a 160 bottle cellar and no place to put more, I have
    to be very selective about what gets put away for long term. Given the
    investment needed for almost any classified growth and the fact that I
    just got my Medicare card, doesn't inspire me to buy Bordeaux or even
    Cali Cabs that require a whole lot of years to even be drinkable. I am
    just starting to drink my 90's Dunns and they are still tannic.

  16. #16
    Bi!! Guest

    Default Re: Sticker shock

    On Apr 26, 3:28*pm, Mark Lipton <not...@eudrup.ude> wrote:
    > On 4/26/12 1:24 PM, Bi!! wrote:
    >
    > > Hi Mark. Much of that was just tongue in cheek....you to will be over
    > > 60 some day!! *;-) I was really referring to the classified stuff that
    > > I used to buy in case lots...I had stopped buying first growths a few
    > > years prior when pricing jumped in the 2000 vintage. *I find that many
    > > classified Bordeaux in the "great" vintage years ( and I don't know
    > > what that means anymore since it seems that every other year is the
    > > vintage of the century) need at least 10 years in the cellar for my
    > > tastes but I'm just now drinking Cal Cabs from the mid to late 90's as
    > > well as many Rhone and Bordeaux wines.

    >
    > Yeah, I figured as much, Bill, but just had to weigh in anyway.
    > Clearly, the solution is for me to find my way out to Columbus to help
    > you polish some of those wines lingering in your cellar! ;-) *For the
    > most part, I agree with you. *More and more I am shying away from the
    > "great" vintages in favor of the "leaner" years, for reasons of taste,
    > pricing and life expectancy ;-)
    >
    > Mark Lipton
    >
    > --
    > alt.food.wine FAQ: *http://winefaq.cwdjr.net


    Well, we do have a major university here with a Chemistry department
    that has occasional seminars.

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