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Thread: Southern Rhone

  1. #1
    Dee Dovey Guest

    Default Southern Rhone

    I'm not sure what this taste is, but DH doesn't taste it. I recall it once
    or twice previously in the last few years. This time I took note of the
    winemaker and see that it is wine from a reputable winemarker, so I will not
    mention it, as it smells like barnyard dung. I'm wondering if it is the
    grenache, although I've not noticed it in other grenache/syrah.

    It is just a hint in the taste. You can't smell it.

    Yes, I know barnyard dung -- born a hillbilly.
    Dee Dee








  2. #2
    Mike Tommasi Guest

    Default Re: Southern Rhone

    Dee Dovey wrote:
    > I'm not sure what this taste is, but DH doesn't taste it. I recall it once
    > or twice previously in the last few years. This time I took note of the
    > winemaker and see that it is wine from a reputable winemarker, so I will not
    > mention it, as it smells like barnyard dung. I'm wondering if it is the
    > grenache, although I've not noticed it in other grenache/syrah.
    >
    > It is just a hint in the taste. You can't smell it.
    >
    > Yes, I know barnyard dung -- born a hillbilly.


    Bad bottle, probaly brettanomyces infection. Grenache does not smell of
    dung :-)


    --
    Mike Tommasi - Six Fours, France
    email link http://www.tommasi.org/mymail

  3. #3
    Dee Dovey Guest

    Default Re: Southern Rhone


    "Mike Tommasi" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]..
    > Dee Dovey wrote:
    >> I'm not sure what this taste is, but DH doesn't taste it. I recall it
    >> once or twice previously in the last few years. This time I took note of
    >> the winemaker and see that it is wine from a reputable winemarker, so I
    >> will not mention it, as it smells like barnyard dung. I'm wondering if it
    >> is the grenache, although I've not noticed it in other grenache/syrah.
    >>
    >> It is just a hint in the taste. You can't smell it.
    >>
    >> Yes, I know barnyard dung -- born a hillbilly.

    >
    > Bad bottle, probaly brettanomyces infection. Grenache does not smell of
    > dung :-)
    >
    >
    > --
    > Mike Tommasi - Six Fours, France
    > email link http://www.tommasi.org/mymail




    Thanks, Mike. I googled brett -- I'm impressed with your knowledge.
    Just another one of those questions that I'm not going to have to postpone
    until I get to the Pearly Gates :-))

    Dee Dee



  4. #4
    DaleW Guest

    Default Re: Southern Rhone

    On Dec 18, 6:14*pm, "Dee Dovey" <deedo...@shentel.net> wrote:
    > "Mike Tommasi" <nob...@tommasi.org> wrote in message
    >
    > news:[email protected]..
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > > Dee Dovey wrote:
    > >> I'm not sure what this taste is, but DH doesn't taste it. *I recall it
    > >> once or twice previously in the last few years. *This time I took note of
    > >> the winemaker and see that it is wine from a reputable winemarker, so I
    > >> will not mention it, as it smells like barnyard dung. I'm wondering ifit
    > >> is the grenache, although I've not noticed it in other grenache/syrah.

    >
    > >> It is just a hint in the taste. *You can't smell it.

    >
    > >> Yes, I know barnyard dung -- born a hillbilly.

    >
    > > Bad bottle, probaly brettanomyces infection. Grenache does not smell of
    > > dung :-)

    >
    > > --
    > > Mike Tommasi - Six Fours, France
    > > email linkhttp://www.tommasi.org/mymail

    >
    > Thanks, Mike. *I googled brett -- I'm impressed with your knowledge.
    > Just another one of those questions that I'm not going to have to postpone
    > until I get to the Pearly Gates :-))
    >
    > Dee Dee


    I'm sure Mike is right about the brett, barnyard/dung is a classic
    descriptor for brettanomyces. The only questionable part of his
    response is the "bad bottle"- it could be representative, there are
    plenty of producers who typically show some brett.

    I don't know of any subject that causes more controversy than brett:

    Brett comes in multiple strains

    Brett can "bloom" in bottles that see warmer storage, or have come
    from one bottle, so there's no definitive way to say XX wine does or
    doesn't have brett.

    People vary a lot in their sensitivity to brett (and various strains
    of the same),.

    People vary a lot in whether they find objectionable (and many find
    one strain ok and another objectionable)

    So not surprising that you found it and DH didn't

  5. #5
    [email protected] Guest

    Default Re: Southern Rhone

    On Fri, 18 Dec 2009 18:40:31 -0800 (PST), DaleW <[email protected]>
    wrote:


    >I'm sure Mike is right about the brett, barnyard/dung is a classic
    >descriptor for brettanomyces. The only questionable part of his
    >response is the "bad bottle"- it could be representative, there are
    >plenty of producers who typically show some brett.
    >
    >I don't know of any subject that causes more controversy than brett:
    >
    >Brett comes in multiple strains
    >
    >Brett can "bloom" in bottles that see warmer storage, or have come
    >from one bottle, so there's no definitive way to say XX wine does or
    >doesn't have brett.
    >
    >People vary a lot in their sensitivity to brett (and various strains
    >of the same),.
    >
    >People vary a lot in whether they find objectionable (and many find
    >one strain ok and another objectionable)
    >
    >So not surprising that you found it and DH didn't


    I'm one who can't stand it. Too many bottles are contaminated these
    days, some worse than others. Most of them seem to be Spanish and
    French. The minute I sense brett, the bottle goes back or gets
    dumped.

    I recent years I've had problems with wines from Pesquera (1996) and
    Condado de Haz (2001). When I returned the wines, the local rep tried
    to blow me off with some snooty b.s. about not appreciating the wines'
    "rustic style." Fact is there was nothing "rustic" about it -- the
    wine was contaminated. I have Condados in my cellar from other
    (earlier) vintages that are just fine.

    Some of you may recall a similar incident I had several years ago with
    Costco over a stanked-out Kirkland-label Bordeaux. I received a
    similarly arrogant "you don't know jack" attitude from their wine
    queen at the time, but I refused to back down. A few days later all
    that wine was pulled from their shelves.

    Brett -- a good name for a Maverick brother. Not so good as a wine
    "nuance."

    JJ

  6. #6
    DaleW Guest

    Default Re: Southern Rhone

    On Dec 20, 9:38*am, j...@unspameljefe.net wrote:
    > On Fri, 18 Dec 2009 18:40:31 -0800 (PST), DaleW <Dwmi...@aol.com>
    > wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > >I'm sure Mike is right about the brett, barnyard/dung is a classic
    > >descriptor for *brettanomyces. The only questionable part of his
    > >response is the "bad bottle"- it could be representative, there are
    > >plenty of producers who typically show some brett.

    >
    > >I don't know of any subject that causes more controversy than brett:

    >
    > >Brett comes in multiple strains

    >
    > >Brett can "bloom" in bottles that see warmer storage, or have come
    > >from one bottle, so there's no definitive way to say XX wine does or
    > >doesn't have brett.

    >
    > >People vary a lot in their sensitivity to brett (and various strains
    > >of the same),.

    >
    > >People vary a lot in whether they find objectionable (and many find
    > >one strain ok and another objectionable)

    >
    > >So not surprising that you found it and DH didn't

    >
    > I'm one who can't stand it. Too many bottles are contaminated these
    > days, some worse than others. Most of them seem to be Spanish and
    > French. The minute I sense brett, *the bottle goes back or *gets
    > dumped.
    >
    > I recent years I've had problems with wines from Pesquera (1996) and
    > Condado de Haz (2001). When I returned the wines, the local rep tried
    > to blow me off with some snooty b.s. about not appreciating the wines'
    > "rustic style." Fact is there was nothing "rustic" about it -- the
    > wine was contaminated. I have Condados in my cellar from other
    > (earlier) vintages that are just fine.
    >
    > Some of you may recall a similar incident I had several years ago with
    > Costco over a stanked-out Kirkland-label Bordeaux. I received a
    > similarly arrogant "you don't know jack" attitude from their wine
    > queen at the time, but I refused to back down. A few days later all
    > that wine was pulled from their shelves.
    >
    > Brett -- a good name for a Maverick brother. Not so good as a wine
    > "nuance."
    >
    > JJ


    I have to say that lots of my all time favorite wines have shown a
    touch of brett. The "Cordier funk" of 82 & 86 Gruaud, 86 Meyney, good
    bottles of 90 Montrose or 89 Beaucastel.... Of course not every bottle
    with brett appeals, there are limits for me both to how much before it
    becomes problematic, and different strains bother me more than others.

  7. #7
    Dee Dovey Guest

    Default Re: Southern Rhone


    <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]..
    > On Fri, 18 Dec 2009 18:40:31 -0800 (PST), DaleW <[email protected]>
    > wrote:
    >
    > Some of you may recall a similar incident I had several years ago with
    > Costco over a stanked-out Kirkland-label Bordeaux. I received a
    > similarly arrogant "you don't know jack" attitude from their wine
    > queen at the time, but I refused to back down. A few days later all
    > that wine was pulled from their shelves.
    >


    >
    > JJ



    What is worse when buying Costco is to buy a bottle one likes, and then
    decide to buy, say, 6 more bottles. Then, the 1st of the "6 more bottles"
    stink, and then you're faced with opening each one with trepidation.

    The scenario that is most likely to happen in this household is that if it
    is a mediocre, but tolerable, wine to begin with, one starts to doubting
    one's own judgment of buying 6 bottles (of anything!).

    Here at our Costco, I've taken corked bottles back. I leave the un-drunk
    wine in the bottle to show that I've not finished it off.
    As for "you don't know jack" attitude, here in Winchester, VA, I've never
    encountered any attitude at all for any purchases. But I have encountered
    that attitude at another big warehouse store, of which I am no longer a
    member, but not totally for that reason.

    Dee Dee




  8. #8
    davidwine Guest

    Default Re: Southern Rhone


    One man's garbage is another man's brett!




    --
    davidwine

  9. #9
    Steve Slatcher Guest

    Default Re: Southern Rhone

    Mike Tommasi wrote:
    > Dee Dovey wrote:
    >> I'm not sure what this taste is, but DH doesn't taste it. I recall it
    >> once or twice previously in the last few years. This time I took note
    >> of the winemaker and see that it is wine from a reputable winemarker,
    >> so I will not mention it, as it smells like barnyard dung. I'm
    >> wondering if it is the grenache, although I've not noticed it in other
    >> grenache/syrah.
    >>
    >> It is just a hint in the taste. You can't smell it.
    >>
    >> Yes, I know barnyard dung -- born a hillbilly.

    >
    > Bad bottle, probaly brettanomyces infection. Grenache does not smell of
    > dung :-)


    No, but some people identify Mouverdre as the "culprit" in Beaucastel.

    Or it could be brett, as you say, Mike.

    If it is just a hint, many wine lovers would say it is a good thing,
    though opinions differ.

    --
    Steve Slatcher
    http://pobox.com/~steve.slatcher

  10. #10
    Mike Tommasi Guest

    Default Re: Southern Rhone

    Steve Slatcher wrote:
    > Mike Tommasi wrote:
    >> Dee Dovey wrote:
    >>> I'm not sure what this taste is, but DH doesn't taste it. I recall
    >>> it once or twice previously in the last few years. This time I took
    >>> note of the winemaker and see that it is wine from a reputable
    >>> winemarker, so I will not mention it, as it smells like barnyard
    >>> dung. I'm wondering if it is the grenache, although I've not noticed
    >>> it in other grenache/syrah.
    >>>
    >>> It is just a hint in the taste. You can't smell it.
    >>>
    >>> Yes, I know barnyard dung -- born a hillbilly.

    >>
    >> Bad bottle, probaly brettanomyces infection. Grenache does not smell
    >> of dung :-)

    >
    > No, but some people identify Mouverdre as the "culprit" in Beaucastel.
    >
    > Or it could be brett, as you say, Mike.


    Yes it is a common notion that, just because for years Bandol wines were
    made in dirty barrels far older than the vines, the odor of barnyard and
    sweat got an upgrade from "defect" to "typical feature" not just of
    Bandol wines but even of the grape variety Mourvèdre itself...

    Since then, things have thankfully changed and the best Bandol wines
    have no hint of brett whatsoever.

    By the same reasoning, I would impute the funny tastes to Beaucastel
    barrels, not to the poor grape that did nothing to deserve its funky
    reputation.


    --
    Mike Tommasi - Six Fours, France
    email link http://www.tommasi.org/mymail

  11. #11
    Ed Rasimus Guest

    Default Re: Southern Rhone

    On Fri, 25 Dec 2009 09:47:21 +0100, Mike Tommasi <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    >Yes it is a common notion that, just because for years Bandol wines were
    >made in dirty barrels far older than the vines, the odor of barnyard and
    >sweat got an upgrade from "defect" to "typical feature" not just of
    >Bandol wines but even of the grape variety Mourvèdre itself...
    >
    >Since then, things have thankfully changed and the best Bandol wines
    >have no hint of brett whatsoever.
    >
    >By the same reasoning, I would impute the funny tastes to Beaucastel
    >barrels, not to the poor grape that did nothing to deserve its funky
    >reputation.


    So, that explains it! I tasted three different Bandols within about
    ten days over ten years ago and they were the foulest sweaty horse and
    dung mouthful I could imagine. I've never been willing to forgive and
    forget and find that the absence of Bandol in my life is not
    significant.

    I was put off from Mourvedre for a while but have since had some
    excellent examples.

    Ed Rasimus
    Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
    www.thundertales.blogspot.com


  12. #12
    Mike Tommasi Guest

    Default Re: Southern Rhone

    Ed Rasimus wrote:
    > On Fri, 25 Dec 2009 09:47:21 +0100, Mike Tommasi <[email protected]>
    > wrote:
    >
    >> Yes it is a common notion that, just because for years Bandol wines were
    >> made in dirty barrels far older than the vines, the odor of barnyard and
    >> sweat got an upgrade from "defect" to "typical feature" not just of
    >> Bandol wines but even of the grape variety Mourvèdre itself...
    >>
    >> Since then, things have thankfully changed and the best Bandol wines
    >> have no hint of brett whatsoever.
    >>
    >> By the same reasoning, I would impute the funny tastes to Beaucastel
    >> barrels, not to the poor grape that did nothing to deserve its funky
    >> reputation.

    >
    > So, that explains it! I tasted three different Bandols within about
    > ten days over ten years ago and they were the foulest sweaty horse and
    > dung mouthful I could imagine. I've never been willing to forgive and
    > forget and find that the absence of Bandol in my life is not
    > significant.


    Even aside from the old brett problem, there is still the problem that
    some of the famous names here live on their name alone. Pradeaux still
    is reputed to be the best by many, I do not understand why, it is one of
    the few wines that I consistently strongly dislike, I often use the
    french adjective "infecte" for it. OTOH Tempier, Terrebrune, Lafran
    Veyrolle are great.

    --
    Mike Tommasi - Six Fours, France
    email link http://www.tommasi.org/mymail

  13. #13
    Emery Davis Guest

    Default Re: Southern Rhone

    On 12/25/2009 05:37 PM, Mike Tommasi wrote:
    > Ed Rasimus wrote:
    >> On Fri, 25 Dec 2009 09:47:21 +0100, Mike Tommasi <[email protected]>
    >> wrote:
    >>
    >>> Yes it is a common notion that, just because for years Bandol wines
    >>> were made in dirty barrels far older than the vines, the odor of
    >>> barnyard and sweat got an upgrade from "defect" to "typical feature"
    >>> not just of Bandol wines but even of the grape variety Mourvèdre
    >>> itself...
    >>>
    >>> Since then, things have thankfully changed and the best Bandol wines
    >>> have no hint of brett whatsoever.
    >>>
    >>> By the same reasoning, I would impute the funny tastes to Beaucastel
    >>> barrels, not to the poor grape that did nothing to deserve its funky
    >>> reputation.

    >>
    >> So, that explains it! I tasted three different Bandols within about
    >> ten days over ten years ago and they were the foulest sweaty horse and
    >> dung mouthful I could imagine. I've never been willing to forgive and
    >> forget and find that the absence of Bandol in my life is not
    >> significant.

    >
    > Even aside from the old brett problem, there is still the problem that
    > some of the famous names here live on their name alone. Pradeaux still
    > is reputed to be the best by many, I do not understand why, it is one of
    > the few wines that I consistently strongly dislike, I often use the
    > french adjective "infecte" for it. OTOH Tempier, Terrebrune, Lafran
    > Veyrolle are great.
    >


    Had a nice tasting of Ste Anne at the Salon Caves Particulieres (or
    whatever they call it now) in Paris early December. The wines were all
    clean but less interesting to me than I recalled. Possibly because of
    my apparatus.

    I do find there is a "Mourvedre funk" outside of brett, which I quite
    like, it seems to impart depth on the palate to me. Of course I'm not
    against a touch of brett either, if not overdone. Brett isn't unique to
    the southern Rhone of course, I've had many a Loire wine that was, uh,
    infecte because of it.

    -E

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