Thread: rapid aging

On 29/03/2012 18:50, RichD wrote:
> Is the chemistry of wine aging completely understood?

Just noticed this question. It's an easy one to answer. No!

There are many chemical compounds that exist in small quantities in
wine, and many of them react with each other, resulting in new compounds
that react further. Change the relative speed of any one reaction or
class of reactions and you finish up with a different mix of chemicals -
a different wine.

The easiest way of speeding up the reactions is to store your wine at a
higher temperature. And extra 10 degC will approximately double the
rate of the reaction, but each reaction will be a a little slower or
faster that the factor of two. So, as mentioned above, it will not
finish up the same wine. And if the temperature is too high you will
totally ruin your wine.

--
www.winenous.co.uk

"Steve Slatcher" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]..
> On 29/03/2012 18:50, RichD wrote:
>> Is the chemistry of wine aging completely understood?
>
> Just noticed this question. It's an easy one to answer. No!
>
> There are many chemical compounds that exist in small quantities in wine,
> and many of them react with each other, resulting in new compounds that
> react further. Change the relative speed of any one reaction or class of
> reactions and you finish up with a different mix of chemicals - a
> different wine.
>
> The easiest way of speeding up the reactions is to store your wine at a
> higher temperature. And extra 10 degC will approximately double the rate
> of the reaction, but each reaction will be a a little slower or faster
> that the factor of two. So, as mentioned above, it will not finish up the
> same wine. And if the temperature is too high you will totally ruin your
> wine.
>
> --
> www.winenous.co.uk

Here's an experiment for those with a Thermomix. Take a young Bordeaux, pour
it into the machine and whiz it up at required 10C intervals.

This will combine the techniques of hyperdecanting and heating and both age
and aerate the wine simultaneously.

I calculate that the 2011 Mouton Rothschild subjected to this treatment
should be mellow and quaffable after about 20 minutes at 50C. (Cool before
sipping)

Cheers!

Martin

On Mar 29, 11:50*am, RichD <r_delaney2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Is the chemistry of wine aging completely understood?
> Is it possible to engineer an enzyme, which would
> speed the process? *There is obviously a tremendous
> potential demand for such a thing.
>
> Considering the size and age of the business, it seems
> unlikely I'm the first to ever ask this question -
>
> --
> Rich

I am no expert, but I am under the impression that the main purpose or
"aging" any liquor in oak barrels is to impart an oak flavor which is
sort of like that of vanilla. In my experience, aging wine in glass
bottles does nothing good and, if the bottle is corked, it will impart
a cork flavor or, worse, the wine will spoil. It makes me wonder how
stupid the tradition of corking wine bottles really is.

In article <[email protected]>, aruzinsky <[email protected]> wrote:
>On Mar 29, 11:50=A0am, RichD <r_delaney2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Is the chemistry of wine aging completely understood?
>> Is it possible to engineer an enzyme, which would
>> speed the process? =A0There is obviously a tremendous
>> potential demand for such a thing.
>>
>> Considering the size and age of the business, it seems
>> unlikely I'm the first to ever ask this question -
>
>I am no expert, but I am under the impression that the main purpose or
>"aging" any liquor in oak barrels is to impart an oak flavor which is
>sort of like that of vanilla. In my experience, aging wine in glass
>bottles does nothing good and, if the bottle is corked, it will impart
>a cork flavor or, worse, the wine will spoil. It makes me wonder how
>stupid the tradition of corking wine bottles really is.

Many winemakers in New Zealand and other places have moved to screw caps for
pretty much all wine varieties. The theory is that they bottle it when they
like it, not a bit before. That way, the wine the like is the wine you get.

Probably helps them keep for as long or longer than they would have under
cork. You never break a cork, or have to push a cork into the bottle too.

IME (as a consunmer only ), they are great.
I have never had an "off" wine from a screw top bottle.

"Bruce Sinclair" <[email protected] > wrote
in message news:jlg3dq$a6a$[email protected]..
> In article
> <[email protected]>,
> aruzinsky <[email protected]> wrote:
>>On Mar 29, 11:50=A0am, RichD <r_delaney2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
snip

It makes me wonder how
>>stupid the tradition of corking wine bottles really is.
>
> Many winemakers in New Zealand and other places have moved to screw caps
> for
> pretty much all wine varieties. The theory is that they bottle it when
> they
> like it, not a bit before. That way, the wine the like is the wine you
> get.
>
> Probably helps them keep for as long or longer than they would have under
> cork. You never break a cork, or have to push a cork into the bottle too.
>
>
> IME (as a consunmer only ), they are great.
> I have never had an "off" wine from a screw top bottle.
>
Screw caps on bottles in Australia is now almost universal.

I find myself using a cork screw less and less - perhaps once a fortnight -
on imported bottles or on Australian wine from the early '00s.

One interesting side effect of this trend is that I've noticed lots of 2nd
hand cork screws for sale at op shops (thrift shops).

Another is that I hardly ever encounter corked wine any more - hooray! Used
to be about one in a dozen - a disgraceful and expensive blight on the wine
industry.

I can report that the only minor "off" note I've found in screw capped
bottles is an infrequent faint note of reductive sulphur on first opening.
This dissipates rapidly.

Cheers!

Martin

On 03/04/2012 15:47, aruzinsky wrote:

> I am no expert, but I am under the impression that the main purpose or
> "aging" any liquor in oak barrels is to impart an oak flavor which is
> sort of like that of vanilla.

If we are talking about wine, that might be ONE of the reasons for
ageing in oak. I am not sure I'd say it is the main one.

> In my experience, aging wine in glass
> bottles does nothing good

That is not my experience, and not the experience of many other wine
lovers who are prepared to pay a premium for an older vintage. You need
to start with a decent wine of course. Cheap wines will most likely go
downhill with time in bottle - and ageing in barrel probably wouldn't
help much either!

> and, if the bottle is corked, it will impart
> a cork flavor or, worse, the wine will spoil. It makes me wonder how
> stupid the tradition of corking wine bottles really is.

The cork is a great innovation compared to stuffing an oily rag into the
top of a jar (that's how it started). I tend to agree we can do better
now, but it is still a controversial subject.

--
www.winenous.co.uk

On Apr 4, 9:26*pm, Steve Slatcher <steve.slatc...@pobox.com> wrote:
> ...
That is not my experience, and not the experience of many other wine
lovers who are prepared to pay a premium for an older vintage.

Does your experience involve tasting the same batch of wine before and
after aging in glass bottles? If "yes," how did you you remember the
previous flavor so well and how do you know that your taste buds
didn't change in the time interval. If "no," exactly how do you
know?

I propose the following experiment:

1. Buy two bottles of wine of the same recently made batch.
2. Put one bottle in a good wine cellar.
3. Pour the other bottle into a suitable container and store it in
liquid nitrogen. Save the empty bottle.
4. Wait maybe 20 years.
5. Defrost the frozen wine and pour it back into the bottle.
6. Taste the two wines within a short interval of time.
7. Which tasted better?

> ...
> The cork is a great innovation compared to stuffing an oily rag into the
> top of a jar (that's how it started).
> ...

Oh, really? Pretend that you are a cave man with an IQ greater than
150 who makes wine. Which would you choose?:

1. Oily Rag
2. Cork Plug
3. Cork Plug Soaked in Melted Bee's Wax

Please, no more crossposting, especially if you don't know what you are
talking about w.r.t. wine. We get pro myth-debunkers every month
trolling around here.

On 06/04/2012 18:50, aruzinsky wrote:
> On Apr 4, 9:26 pm, Steve Slatcher<steve.slatc...@pobox.com> wrote:
>> ...
> That is not my experience, and not the experience of many other wine
> lovers who are prepared to pay a premium for an older vintage.
>
> Does your experience involve tasting the same batch of wine before and
> after aging in glass bottles? If "yes," how did you you remember the
> previous flavor so well and how do you know that your taste buds
> didn't change in the time interval. If "no," exactly how do you
> know?
>
> I propose the following experiment:
>
> 1. Buy two bottles of wine of the same recently made batch.
> 2. Put one bottle in a good wine cellar.
> 3. Pour the other bottle into a suitable container and store it in
> liquid nitrogen. Save the empty bottle.
> 4. Wait maybe 20 years.
> 5. Defrost the frozen wine and pour it back into the bottle.
> 6. Taste the two wines within a short interval of time.
> 7. Which tasted better?
>
>> ...
>> The cork is a great innovation compared to stuffing an oily rag into the
>> top of a jar (that's how it started).
>> ...
>
> Oh, really? Pretend that you are a cave man with an IQ greater than
> 150 who makes wine. Which would you choose?:
>
> 1. Oily Rag
> 2. Cork Plug
> 3. Cork Plug Soaked in Melted Bee's Wax

On Mar 29, 11:50*am, RichD <r_delaney2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Is the chemistry of wine aging completely understood?

no not

>I am no expert, but I am under the impression that the main purpose or
>"aging" any liquor in oak barrels is to impart an oak flavor which is
>sort of like that of vanilla.

I think it is a lot more complicated than that. From what i know [which
is not very much] the aging process has a *lot* of reactions [one is of
course the taste of wood], which are not totally well understood.

In article <[email protected]>,
aruzinsky <[email protected]> wrote:
>I am no expert, but I am under the impression that the main purpose or
>"aging" any liquor in oak barrels is to impart an oak flavor which is
>sort of like that of vanilla.

I think it is a lot more complicated than that. From what i know [which
is not very much] the aging process has a *lot* of reactions [one is of
course the taste of wood], which are not totally well understood. Right
not it's more closer to magic than science.

>In my experience, aging wine in glass bottles does nothing good and, if
>the bottle is corked, it will impart a cork flavor or, worse, the wine
>will spoil. It makes me wonder how stupid the tradition of corking
>wine bottles really is.

agreed

The plastic plugs are great.

On Apr 6, 11:45*am, Mike Tommasi <nob...@tommasi.org> wrote:
> Please, no more crossposting, especially if you don't know what you are
> talking about w.r.t. wine. We get pro myth-debunkers every month
> trolling around here.
>

"Newsgroups: alt.food.wine, sci.chem
From: Mike Tommasi <nob...@tommasi.org>
Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2012 19:45:53 +0200
Local: Fri, Apr 6 2012 11:45 am
Subject: Re: rapid aging"

I AM NOT DELIBERATELY CROSS POSTING, YOU MORON! IT WAS MY INTENTION
TO ONLY POST TO AND FROM SCI.CHEM OF THE GOOGLE USENET PORTAL AND I
HAD NO PRIOR KNOWLEDGE OF MY WRITINGS APPEARING ELSEWHERE. I DON'T
KNOW HOW TO CROSS-POST AND I SUSPECT THE OP IS RESPONSIBLE. BUT, NOW
THAT I KNOW THAT MY WRITING APPEARS IN ALT.FOOD.WINE, I HEREBY TAKE
THIS OPPORTUNITY TO SAY THAT ALT.FOOD.WINE IS LARGELY COMPOSED OF
MORONS AND YOUR (PLURAL) HIVE MENTALITY IS INCREDIBLY STUPID. HERE,
WE ARE MOSTLY SCIENTISTS AND ENGINEERS.

On Apr 7, 7:52*pm, j...@panix.com (Joe keane) wrote:
> On Mar 29, 11:50*am, RichD <r_delaney2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Is the chemistry of wine aging completely understood?
>
> no not
>
> >I am no expert, but I am under the impression that the main purpose or
> >"aging" any liquor in oak barrels is to impart an oak flavor which is
> >sort of like that of vanilla.
>
> I think it is a lot more complicated than that.

I take the position that the main purpose is simple and the lesser
purposes are complicated. Sometimes woods other than oak are used. I
am going to guess that selective absorption and selective adsorption
are involved which are, of course, complicated. Neither, is expected
to occur in glass bottles.

>*From what i know [which
> is not very much] the aging process has a *lot* of reactions [one is of
> course the taste of wood], which are not totally well understood.
>
> In article <a9d19a7f-d579-41ef-884f-02cf277eb...@db5g2000vbb.googlegroups..com>,
>
> aruzinsky *<aruzin...@general-cathexis.com> wrote:
> >I am no expert, but I am under the impression that the main purpose or
> >"aging" any liquor in oak barrels is to impart an oak flavor which is
> >sort of like that of vanilla.
>
> I think it is a lot more complicated than that. *From what i know [which
> is not very much] the aging process has a *lot* of reactions [one is of
> course the taste of wood], which are not totally well understood. *Right
> not it's more closer to magic than science.
>
> >In my experience, aging wine in glass bottles does nothing good and, if
> >the bottle is corked, it will impart a cork flavor or, worse, the wine
> >will spoil. *It makes me wonder how stupid the tradition of corking
> >wine bottles really is.
>
> agreed
>
> The plastic plugs are great.

The obvious question is, "Can the deleterious effects of cork be
negated by soaking the cork in molten bee's wax?" I point out that,
for a very long, milk cartons were made of cardboard soaked in wax.

On 08/04/2012 18:26, aruzinsky wrote:
> On Apr 6, 11:45 am, Mike Tommasi<nob...@tommasi.org> wrote:
>> Please, no more crossposting, especially if you don't know what you are
>> talking about w.r.t. wine. We get pro myth-debunkers every month
>> trolling around here.
>>
>
> "Newsgroups: alt.food.wine, sci.chem
> From: Mike Tommasi<nob...@tommasi.org>
> Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2012 19:45:53 +0200
> Local: Fri, Apr 6 2012 11:45 am
> Subject: Re: rapid aging"
>
> I AM NOT DELIBERATELY CROSS POSTING, YOU MORON! IT WAS MY INTENTION
> TO ONLY POST TO AND FROM SCI.CHEM OF THE GOOGLE USENET PORTAL AND I
> HAD NO PRIOR KNOWLEDGE OF MY WRITINGS APPEARING ELSEWHERE. I DON'T
> KNOW HOW TO CROSS-POST AND I SUSPECT THE OP IS RESPONSIBLE. BUT, NOW
> THAT I KNOW THAT MY WRITING APPEARS IN ALT.FOOD.WINE, I HEREBY TAKE
> THIS OPPORTUNITY TO SAY THAT ALT.FOOD.WINE IS LARGELY COMPOSED OF
> MORONS AND YOUR (PLURAL) HIVE MENTALITY IS INCREDIBLY STUPID. HERE,
> WE ARE MOSTLY SCIENTISTS AND ENGINEERS.

As you would say, QED...

On Apr 8, 12:26*pm, Mike Tommasi <nob...@tommasi.org> wrote:
> On 08/04/2012 18:26, aruzinsky wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Apr 6, 11:45 am, Mike Tommasi<nob...@tommasi.org> *wrote:
> >> Please, no more crossposting, especially if you don't know what you are
> >> talking about w.r.t. wine. We get pro myth-debunkers every month
> >> trolling around here.
>
> > "Newsgroups: alt.food.wine, sci.chem
> > From: Mike Tommasi<nob...@tommasi.org>
> > Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2012 19:45:53 +0200
> > Local: Fri, Apr 6 2012 11:45 am
> > Subject: Re: rapid aging"
>
> > I AM NOT DELIBERATELY CROSS POSTING, YOU MORON! *IT WAS MY INTENTION
> > TO ONLY POST TO AND FROM SCI.CHEM OF THE GOOGLE USENET PORTAL AND I
> > HAD NO PRIOR KNOWLEDGE OF MY WRITINGS APPEARING ELSEWHERE. *I DON'T
> > KNOW HOW TO CROSS-POST AND I SUSPECT THE OP IS RESPONSIBLE. *BUT, NOW
> > THAT I KNOW THAT MY WRITING APPEARS IN ALT.FOOD.WINE, I HEREBY TAKE
> > THIS OPPORTUNITY TO SAY THAT ALT.FOOD.WINE IS LARGELY COMPOSED OF
> > MORONS AND YOUR (PLURAL) HIVE MENTALITY IS INCREDIBLY STUPID. *HERE,
> > WE ARE MOSTLY SCIENTISTS AND ENGINEERS.
>
> As you would say, QED...- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Agreed; you are a moron, QED.

On Apr 7, j...@panix.com (Joe keane) wrote:
> > Is the chemistry of wine aging completely understood?
>
> no not
>
> >I am no expert, but I am under the impression that the main purpose or
> >"aging" any liquor in oak barrels is to impart an oak flavor which is
> >sort of like that of vanilla.
>
> I think it is a lot more complicated than that. *From what i know [which
> is not very much] the aging process has a *lot* of reactions [one is of
> course the taste of wood], which are not totally well understood. *Right
> not it's more closer to magic than science.

No, the question regards aging in bottles. If you could
cut 20 years down to 2, that would obviously be of great
value. Then, what reactions are occurring in the bottle,
and is it possible to accelerate that, with a magic enzyme?

--
Rich

..

aruzinsky wrote:
> On Apr 8, 12:26 pm, Mike Tommasi <nob...@tommasi.org> wrote:
>> On 08/04/2012 18:26, aruzinsky wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Apr 6, 11:45 am, Mike Tommasi<nob...@tommasi.org> wrote:
>>>> Please, no more crossposting, especially if you don't know what you are
>>>> talking about w.r.t. wine. We get pro myth-debunkers every month
>>>> trolling around here.
>>> "Newsgroups: alt.food.wine, sci.chem
>>> From: Mike Tommasi<nob...@tommasi.org>
>>> Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2012 19:45:53 +0200
>>> Local: Fri, Apr 6 2012 11:45 am
>>> Subject: Re: rapid aging"
>>> I AM NOT DELIBERATELY CROSS POSTING, YOU MORON! IT WAS MY INTENTION
>>> TO ONLY POST TO AND FROM SCI.CHEM OF THE GOOGLE USENET PORTAL AND I
>>> HAD NO PRIOR KNOWLEDGE OF MY WRITINGS APPEARING ELSEWHERE. I DON'T
>>> KNOW HOW TO CROSS-POST AND I SUSPECT THE OP IS RESPONSIBLE. BUT, NOW
>>> THAT I KNOW THAT MY WRITING APPEARS IN ALT.FOOD.WINE, I HEREBY TAKE
>>> THIS OPPORTUNITY TO SAY THAT ALT.FOOD.WINE IS LARGELY COMPOSED OF
>>> MORONS AND YOUR (PLURAL) HIVE MENTALITY IS INCREDIBLY STUPID. HERE,
>>> WE ARE MOSTLY SCIENTISTS AND ENGINEERS.
>> As you would say, QED...- Hide quoted text -
>>
>
> Agreed; you are a moron, QED.

As my primary school teacher used to say, when we were tossing names around
at each other: "What you say is what you are".

--
You'd be crazy to e-mail me with the crazy. But leave the div alone.
*
Whoever bans a book, shall be banished. Whoever burns a book, shall burn.

On Apr 9, 10:49*am, Patok <crazy.div.pa...@gmail.com> wrote:
> aruzinsky wrote:
> > On Apr 8, 12:26 pm, Mike Tommasi <nob...@tommasi.org> wrote:
> >> On 08/04/2012 18:26, aruzinsky wrote:
>
> >>> On Apr 6, 11:45 am, Mike Tommasi<nob...@tommasi.org> *wrote:
> >>>> Please, no more crossposting, especially if you don't know what you are
> >>>> talking about w.r.t. wine. We get pro myth-debunkers every month
> >>>> trolling around here.
> >>> "Newsgroups: alt.food.wine, sci.chem
> >>> From: Mike Tommasi<nob...@tommasi.org>
> >>> Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2012 19:45:53 +0200
> >>> Local: Fri, Apr 6 2012 11:45 am
> >>> Subject: Re: rapid aging"
> >>> I AM NOT DELIBERATELY CROSS POSTING, YOU MORON! *IT WAS MY INTENTION
> >>> TO ONLY POST TO AND FROM SCI.CHEM OF THE GOOGLE USENET PORTAL AND I
> >>> HAD NO PRIOR KNOWLEDGE OF MY WRITINGS APPEARING ELSEWHERE. *I DON'T
> >>> KNOW HOW TO CROSS-POST AND I SUSPECT THE OP IS RESPONSIBLE. *BUT, NOW
> >>> THAT I KNOW THAT MY WRITING APPEARS IN ALT.FOOD.WINE, I HEREBY TAKE
> >>> THIS OPPORTUNITY TO SAY THAT ALT.FOOD.WINE IS LARGELY COMPOSED OF
> >>> MORONS AND YOUR (PLURAL) HIVE MENTALITY IS INCREDIBLY STUPID. *HERE,
> >>> WE ARE MOSTLY SCIENTISTS AND ENGINEERS.
> >> As you would say, QED...- Hide quoted text -
>
> > Agreed; you are a moron, QED.
>
> * *As my primary school teacher used to say, when we were tossing names around
> at each other: "What you say is what you are".
>
> --
> You'd be crazy to e-mail me with the crazy. But leave the div alone.
> *
> Whoever bans a book, shall be banished. Whoever burns a book, shall burn.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

And, Pee-wee Herman used to say, "I know you are, but, what am I?"
Whatever validity such statements have are scientifically explained by
the psychological phenomenon known as "projection." See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection . If your
primary school teacher were not a moron, he or she would have given a
scientific explanation as I did.

Examine the facts. Mike Tommasi falsely and too verbosely accused me
of cross posting. He does not deserve to save face. He deserves to
have his nose rubbed in it like a dog who pooped on the rug.
Incidentally, I am not a civil engineer (pun intended).

aruzinsky wrote:
> On Apr 9, 10:49 am, Patok <crazy.div.pa...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> aruzinsky wrote:
>>> On Apr 8, 12:26 pm, Mike Tommasi <nob...@tommasi.org> wrote:
>> >
>>>> As you would say, QED...
>>
>>> Agreed; you are a moron, QED.
>>
>> As my primary school teacher used to say, when we were tossing names around
>> at each other: "What you say is what you are".
>
> And, Pee-wee Herman used to say, "I know you are, but, what am I?"
> Whatever validity such statements have are scientifically explained by
> the psychological phenomenon known as "projection." See
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection . If your
> primary school teacher were not a moron, he or she would have given a
> scientific explanation as I did.

My teacher would have been a moron to explain projection to first-graders.


> Examine the facts. Mike Tommasi falsely and too verbosely accused me
> of cross posting. He does not deserve to save face. He deserves to
> have his nose rubbed in it like a dog who pooped on the rug.
> Incidentally, I am not a civil engineer (pun intended).

Whatever you are or not, it's your responsibility to know where what you
write goes. As they say, "ignorance is no excuse". You *did* cross post, so
Mike's accusation was not false. And if anything was verbose, it was your
unwarranted shouting, Mr non-civil engineer.

--
You'd be crazy to e-mail me with the crazy. But leave the div alone.
*
Whoever bans a book, shall be banished. Whoever burns a book, shall burn.

In article <[email protected]>, RichD <[email protected]> wrote:
>On Apr 7, j...@panix.com (Joe keane) wrote:
>> > Is the chemistry of wine aging completely understood?
>> no not
>> >I am no expert, but I am under the impression that the main purpose or
>> >"aging" any liquor in oak barrels is to impart an oak flavor which is
>> >sort of like that of vanilla.
>> I think it is a lot more complicated than that. =A0From what i know [whic=
>h
>> is not very much] the aging process has a *lot* of reactions [one is of
>> course the taste of wood], which are not totally well understood. =A0Righ=
>t
>> not it's more closer to magic than science.
>
>No, the question regards aging in bottles. If you could
>cut 20 years down to 2, that would obviously be of great
>value. Then, what reactions are occurring in the bottle,
>and is it possible to accelerate that, with a magic enzyme?

To paraphrase my earlier post, all (or most) reactions that occur in bottles
are considered 'bad'. That's why many/most winemakers are now putting the
vast bulk of their production into screw top bottles. The 'bad' reactions
are reduced, and the wine tastes like they want it to. IME, this is a very
good thing.

On Apr 9, 12:08*pm, Patok <crazy.div.pa...@gmail.com> wrote:

> As they say, "ignorance is no excuse".

Who are "they?" In Illinois, USA, almost everyone who voted for Rod
Blagojevich for Governor had no idea that he was a crook who would be
impeached and sent to prison. Under your "ignorance is no excuse"
premise, his electorate should also be sent to jail. And, his
electorate almost certainly includes Barrack Obama because he
campaigned for Rod Blagojevich.