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Thread: Never to be drunk w/food

  1. #1
    aesthete8 Guest

    Default Never to be drunk w/food

    Is there any great wine that is supposed to be enjoyed strictly by
    itself?

  2. #2
    Steve Slatcher Guest

    Default Re: Never to be drunk w/food

    aesthete8 wrote:
    > Is there any great wine that is supposed to be enjoyed strictly by
    > itself?


    Who it it that dictates how wine is supposed to be drunk?

    Side-stepping that question for a while, I think I would probably prefer
    to drink a great Sauternes (OK, I mean Yquem) by itself.

    Also, in Italian there is a concept "vino da meditazione", which I
    believe is basically a wine to be enjoyed slowly by itself, usually a
    sweet wine - a passito or recioto.

    --
    Steve Slatcher
    http://pobox.com/~steve.slatcher

  3. #3
    Mike Tommasi Guest

    Default Re: Never to be drunk w/food

    Steve Slatcher wrote:
    > aesthete8 wrote:
    >> Is there any great wine that is supposed to be enjoyed strictly by
    >> itself?

    >
    > Who it it that dictates how wine is supposed to be drunk?
    >
    > Side-stepping that question for a while, I think I would probably prefer
    > to drink a great Sauternes (OK, I mean Yquem) by itself.
    >
    > Also, in Italian there is a concept "vino da meditazione", which I
    > believe is basically a wine to be enjoyed slowly by itself, usually a
    > sweet wine - a passito or recioto.


    True, having said that, the count of Lur Saluces thought that drinking
    his Yquem on its own was ok, but drinking it with food was much better.
    He suggested oysters would be a great match.


    --
    Mike Tommasi - Six Fours, France
    email link http://www.tommasi.org/mymail

  4. #4
    James Silverton Guest

    Default Re: Never to be drunk w/food

    Mike wrote on Sun, 01 Nov 2009 09:28:37 +0100:

    > Steve Slatcher wrote:
    >> aesthete8 wrote:
    >>> Is there any great wine that is supposed to be enjoyed
    >>> strictly by itself?

    >>
    >> Who it it that dictates how wine is supposed to be drunk?
    >>
    >> Side-stepping that question for a while, I think I would
    >> probably prefer to drink a great Sauternes (OK, I mean Yquem)
    >> by itself.
    >>
    >> Also, in Italian there is a concept "vino da meditazione",
    >> which I believe is basically a wine to be enjoyed slowly by
    >> itself, usually a sweet wine - a passito or recioto.


    > True, having said that, the count of Lur Saluces thought that drinking
    > his Yquem on its own was ok, but drinking it with
    > food was much better. He suggested oysters would be a great
    > match.


    I can't reach the Count's levels of conspicuous consumption but the idea
    of *any* sweet wine with oysters is abhorrent to me. You might as well
    drink coke or lemonade!!

    --

    James Silverton
    Potomac, Maryland

    Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not


  5. #5
    Mike Tommasi Guest

    Default Re: Never to be drunk w/food

    James Silverton wrote:
    > Mike wrote on Sun, 01 Nov 2009 09:28:37 +0100:
    >
    >> Steve Slatcher wrote:
    >>> aesthete8 wrote:
    >>>> Is there any great wine that is supposed to be enjoyed
    >>>> strictly by itself?
    >>>
    >>> Who it it that dictates how wine is supposed to be drunk?
    >>>
    >>> Side-stepping that question for a while, I think I would
    >>> probably prefer to drink a great Sauternes (OK, I mean Yquem)
    >>> by itself.
    >>>
    >>> Also, in Italian there is a concept "vino da meditazione",
    >>> which I believe is basically a wine to be enjoyed slowly by
    >>> itself, usually a sweet wine - a passito or recioto.

    >
    >> True, having said that, the count of Lur Saluces thought that drinking
    >> his Yquem on its own was ok, but drinking it with
    >> food was much better. He suggested oysters would be a great
    >> match.

    >
    > I can't reach the Count's levels of conspicuous consumption but the idea
    > of *any* sweet wine with oysters is abhorrent to me. You might as well
    > drink coke or lemonade!!


    I never tried it. However, it seems no worse than the idea of sweet wine
    with foie gras. I suppose if acidity is high enough, it may pass, but
    the idea of fat+sugar or seafood+sugar is indeed strange.


    --
    Mike Tommasi - Six Fours, France
    email link http://www.tommasi.org/mymail

  6. #6
    santiago Guest

    Default Re: Never to be drunk w/food

    Mike Tommasi <[email protected]> wrote in
    news:7l5isdF3cjrcgU1@mid.individual.[email protected]:
    >
    > I never tried it. However, it seems no worse than the idea of sweet
    > wine with foie gras. I suppose if acidity is high enough, it may pass,
    > but the idea of fat+sugar or seafood+sugar is indeed strange.


    Wasn't it here that I read about d'Yquem and lobster?


    s.


  7. #7
    cwdjrxyz Guest

    Default Re: Never to be drunk w/food

    On Nov 1, 8:13*am, santiago <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
    > Mike Tommasi <nob...@tommasi.org> wrote innews:[email protected]:
    >
    >
    >
    > > I never tried it. However, it seems no worse than the idea of sweet
    > > wine with foie gras. I suppose if acidity is high enough, it may pass,
    > > but the idea of fat+sugar or seafood+sugar is indeed strange.

    >
    > Wasn't it here that I read about d'Yquem and lobster?


    I do remember reading in a book or magazine many years ago that one of
    the old counts Lur Saluces, who owned Yquem, did like it with lobster.
    In the old days, lobster often was served with a very rich and
    elaborate sauce as well as rather plain, and I have no idea of what
    kind of lobster dish he had in mind.


  8. #8
    James Silverton Guest

    Default Re: Never to be drunk w/food

    cwdjrxyz wrote on Sun, 1 Nov 2009 08:02:26 -0800 (PST):

    > On Nov 1, 8:13 am, santiago <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
    >> Mike Tommasi <nob...@tommasi.org> wrote
    >> innews:[email protected]:
    >>
    > >> I never tried it. However, it seems no worse than the idea
    > >> of sweet wine with foie gras. I suppose if acidity is high
    > >> enough, it may pass, but the idea of fat+sugar or
    > >> seafood+sugar is indeed strange.

    >>
    >> Wasn't it here that I read about d'Yquem and lobster?


    > quoting<

    I do remember reading in a book or magazine many years ago that one
    ofthe old counts Lur Saluces, who owned Yquem, did like it with
    lobster.In the old days, lobster often was served with a very rich
    and elaborate sauce as well as rather plain, and I have no idea of
    whatkind of lobster dish he had in mind.
    >endquote<


    Tastes do change but I believe that the Count Lur Saluces as a gourmet
    was a good winemaker (or rather his vintner was). Just like Francis
    Coppola as a winemaker, makes successful movies.
    --

    James Silverton
    Potomac, Maryland

    Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not


  9. #9
    cwdjrxyz Guest

    Default Re: Never to be drunk w/food

    On Nov 1, 10:09*am, "James Silverton" <not.jim.silver...@verizon.net>
    wrote:
    > *cwdjrxyz *wrote *on Sun, 1 Nov 2009 08:02:26 -0800 (PST):
    >
    > > On Nov 1, 8:13 am, santiago <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
    > >> Mike Tommasi <nob...@tommasi.org> wrote
    > >> innews:[email protected]:

    >
    > > >> I never tried it. However, it seems no worse than the idea
    > > >> of sweet wine with foie gras. I suppose if acidity is high
    > > >> enough, it may pass, but the idea of fat+sugar or
    > > >> seafood+sugar is indeed strange.

    >
    > >> Wasn't it here that I read about d'Yquem and lobster?

    > > quoting<

    >
    > I do remember reading in a book or magazine many years ago that one
    > ofthe old counts Lur Saluces, who owned Yquem, did like it with
    > lobster.In the old days, lobster often was served with a very rich
    > and elaborate sauce as well as rather plain, and I have no idea of
    > *whatkind of lobster dish he had in mind.
    >
    > >endquote<

    >
    > Tastes do change but I believe that the Count Lur Saluces as a gourmet
    > was a good winemaker (or rather his vintner was). Just like Francis
    > Coppola as a winemaker, makes successful movies.


    If you go back to the late 1800s, you find sweet wines often were
    served with shellfish at even the most exclusive dinners.The 1893
    edition of The Epicurean by Charles Ranhoffer, the then recently
    retired Swiss chef of Delmonico's in NYC, gives some menus with wines
    listed. Delmonico's then was perhaps the best and most exclusive
    restaurant in the US and served the very rich, US presidents, visiting
    nobility from Europe, etc. The often 16 or more course menus give a
    little insight into what wines were served with food then. There are
    of course a lot of Romanee-Conti, Lafite, Krug, and other now
    expensive wines listed. Chablis was sometimes served with oysters, but
    also Sauternes and Creme de Tete(but the wine name was not given!).
    One oyster match is oysters on the shell with Yquem. Another Yquem
    match is with Timbales de Sheepshead a l'Ambassadrice(does anyone know
    what goes in this dish?). Since much Champagne was sweet back then,
    one can not be certain if a Champagne served with a food is sweet or
    dry since the house name only for the Champagne, sometimes with a
    vintage, often was used.




  10. #10
    James Silverton Guest

    Default Re: Never to be drunk w/food

    cwdjrxyz wrote on Sun, 1 Nov 2009 11:45:56 -0800 (PST):

    > On Nov 1, 10:09 am, "James Silverton" <not.jim.silver...@verizon.net>
    > wrote:
    >> cwdjrxyz wrote on Sun, 1 Nov 2009 08:02:26 -0800 (PST):
    >>
    > >> On Nov 1, 8:13 am, santiago <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
    > >>> Mike Tommasi <nob...@tommasi.org> wrote
    > >>> innews:[email protected]:

    >>
    > > >>> I never tried it. However, it seems no worse than the
    > > >>> idea of sweet wine with foie gras. I suppose if acidity
    > > >>> is high enough, it may pass, but the idea of fat+sugar
    > > >>> or seafood+sugar is indeed strange.

    >>
    > >>> Wasn't it here that I read about d'Yquem and lobster?
    > >> quoting<

    >>
    >> I do remember reading in a book or magazine many years ago
    >> that one ofthe old counts Lur Saluces, who owned Yquem, did
    >> like it with lobster.In the old days, lobster often was
    >> served with a very rich and elaborate sauce as well as rather
    >> plain, and I have no idea of whatkind of lobster dish he had
    >> in mind.
    >>
    > >> endquote<

    >>
    >> Tastes do change but I believe that the Count Lur Saluces as
    >> a gourmet was a good winemaker (or rather his vintner was).
    >> Just like Francis Coppola as a winemaker, makes successful
    >> movies.


    >If you go back to the late 1800s, you find sweet wines often were
    >served with shellfish at even the most exclusive dinners.


    We were talking about Chateau d'Yquem with oysters and I assume they
    would be raw. Tho' it's not to my taste, I can see sweet wines with
    highly sauced shellfish but it's hard to imagine eating a raw oyster
    without something acid like lemon or sauce mignonette.

    --

    James Silverton
    Potomac, Maryland

    Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not


  11. #11
    Lawrence Leichtman Guest

    Default Re: Never to be drunk w/food

    In article
    <[email protected]>,
    cwdjrxyz <[email protected]> wrote:

    > On Nov 1, 8:13*am, santiago <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
    > > Mike Tommasi <nob...@tommasi.org> wrote
    > > innews:[email protected]:
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > > I never tried it. However, it seems no worse than the idea of sweet
    > > > wine with foie gras. I suppose if acidity is high enough, it may pass,
    > > > but the idea of fat+sugar or seafood+sugar is indeed strange.

    > >
    > > Wasn't it here that I read about d'Yquem and lobster?

    >
    > I do remember reading in a book or magazine many years ago that one of
    > the old counts Lur Saluces, who owned Yquem, did like it with lobster.
    > In the old days, lobster often was served with a very rich and
    > elaborate sauce as well as rather plain, and I have no idea of what
    > kind of lobster dish he had in mind.


    It could not have been the simple boiled lobster with drawn butter we
    eat here as I don't find that any sweet wines go well with that and my
    palate.

  12. #12
    Martin Field Guest

    Default Re: Never to be drunk w/food


    "Steve Slatcher" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]..
    > aesthete8 wrote:
    >> Is there any great wine that is supposed to be enjoyed strictly by
    >> itself?

    >
    > Who it it that dictates how wine is supposed to be drunk?
    >
    > Side-stepping that question for a while, I think I would probably prefer
    > to drink a great Sauternes (OK, I mean Yquem) by itself.
    >
    > Also, in Italian there is a concept "vino da meditazione", which I believe
    > is basically a wine to be enjoyed slowly by itself, usually a sweet wine -
    > a passito or recioto.
    >
    > --
    > Steve Slatcher
    > http://pobox.com/~steve.slatcher


    Years ago we used to, in a sense, have our cake and eat it. About every
    eighteen months four families would get together for a Grange Sunday lunch.
    Each family would bring an older bottle of Grange - no duplicates allowed.
    The host woul decant them while we sipped champagne. Those who were into it
    would spend about an hour savouring, tasting and talking about the four
    wines. Then we'd all sit down and drink them with lunch as we would any
    everyday red.

    Workd for us.

    Cheers!
    Martin

    PS One year one piker brought an non-Grange "This (australian red) is every
    bit as good as Grange - you'll love it!" It wasn't, we didn't. That was the
    last lunch...


  13. #13
    santiago Guest

    Default Re: Never to be drunk w/food

    Lawrence Leichtman <[email protected]> wrote in
    news:[email protected]:
    >
    > It could not have been the simple boiled lobster with drawn butter we
    > eat here as I don't find that any sweet wines go well with that and my
    > palate.


    I would not mind drinking d'Yquem, or a good Sauternes (more on botrytis
    than in passerillage style) with grilled wild lobster. Specially if the
    wine has some age on it.

    In fact, I do not think a Kabinett or even Spatlese with a few years would
    be a bad match for many grilled shelfish.

    s.

  14. #14
    James Silverton Guest

    Default Re: Never to be drunk w/food

    Steve wrote on Sun, 01 Nov 2009 00:41:02 +0000:

    > aesthete8 wrote:
    >> Is there any great wine that is supposed to be enjoyed
    >> strictly by itself?


    > Who it it that dictates how wine is supposed to be drunk?


    > Side-stepping that question for a while, I think I would
    > probably prefer to drink a great Sauternes (OK, I mean Yquem) by
    > itself.


    > Also, in Italian there is a concept "vino da meditazione",
    > which I believe is basically a wine to be enjoyed slowly by
    > itself, usually a sweet wine - a passito or recioto.


    I know a number of people who say they don't like white wine but who
    will drink a good bottle of red wine *before* a dinner where red is
    inappropriate.

    --

    James Silverton
    Potomac, Maryland

    Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not


  15. #15
    Ed Rasimus Guest

    Default Re: Never to be drunk w/food

    On Sat, 31 Oct 2009 14:24:06 -0700 (PDT), aesthete8 <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    >Is there any great wine that is supposed to be enjoyed strictly by
    >itself?


    While the discussion of oysters and lobsters with wines of varying
    sweetness is enlightening, the basic question goes unanswered so far.

    The problem, I guess is the adjective "great" wine in the query.

    Some wines that I don't see with food under any circumstances but
    which may or may not be enjoyable are Vin Santo (except for maybe a
    tiny wafer of bread...) and there was a wonderful family made rose
    retsina that I had at the home of a Greek Air Force general in Athens.
    Brought out after a long and delicious lamb dinner, the pink retsina
    was a delightful digestif and fueled interesting conversation into the
    early morning hours.

    His father made it each year and presented a barrel to each of his
    five sons!

    Ed Rasimus
    Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
    www.thundertales.blogspot.com
    www.thunderchief.org

  16. #16
    Lawrence Leichtman Guest

    Default Re: Never to be drunk w/food

    In article <hckvkl$k87$[email protected]>,
    "James Silverton" <[email protected]> wrote:

    > Steve wrote on Sun, 01 Nov 2009 00:41:02 +0000:
    >
    > > aesthete8 wrote:
    > >> Is there any great wine that is supposed to be enjoyed
    > >> strictly by itself?

    >
    > > Who it it that dictates how wine is supposed to be drunk?

    >
    > > Side-stepping that question for a while, I think I would
    > > probably prefer to drink a great Sauternes (OK, I mean Yquem) by
    > > itself.

    >
    > > Also, in Italian there is a concept "vino da meditazione",
    > > which I believe is basically a wine to be enjoyed slowly by
    > > itself, usually a sweet wine - a passito or recioto.

    >
    > I know a number of people who say they don't like white wine but who
    > will drink a good bottle of red wine *before* a dinner where red is
    > inappropriate.


    I drink almost all wines (even Retsina but not often). I just have never
    been a fan of sweet wines with shellfish. A small amount of residual
    sugar is one thing but not very sweet such as a sauterne.

  17. #17
    cwdjrxyz Guest

    Default Re: Never to be drunk w/food

    On Nov 1, 1:45*pm, cwdjrxyz <spamtr...@cwdjr.info> wrote:
    > Another Yquem
    > match is with Timbales de Sheepshead a l'Ambassadrice(does anyone know
    > what goes in this dish?).


    Sheepshead is a fish http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheepshead_(fish) .
    I could not find the dish made from this fish, but I did find a dish
    called Timbale of Fillets of Sole from the late 1800s that may
    indicate how such dishes are made. A timbale paste is made from 1
    pound of flour, 3/4 pound butter, 5 egg yolks and some salt and water.
    This is used to bake a large timbale shell using a special timbale
    pan. The inside of the baked timbale is glazed( I would guess that a
    fish or chicken glaze would be used). The sole fillets are poached in
    butter with salt and lemon juice. Then allemande sauce with minced
    truffles and mushrooms is added to the sole and this mixture is used
    to fill the timbale shell. Crayfish are used to garnish the top. There
    also is another garnish in the form of little pasta cakes with yet
    more truffles. Such a dish would be extremely rich and would require a
    wine of great intensity not to be over powered by it. Yquem perhaps
    has the needed intensity, but I am not sure the match would please
    some modern tastes.


  18. #18
    cwdjrxyz Guest

    Default Re: Never to be drunk w/food

    On Nov 2, 11:04*am, cwdjrxyz <spamtr...@cwdjr.info> wrote:
    what goes in this dish?).

    > Sheepshead is a fishhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheepshead_(fish) .


    Use this url instead of the above: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheepshead_(fish)
    ..

  19. #19
    enoavidh Guest

    Default Re: Never to be drunk w/food

    cwdjrxyz <[email protected]> wrote in news:834baadc-63d1-4c25-bc1d-
    [email protected]:

    > On Nov 1, 1:45*pm, cwdjrxyz <spamtr...@cwdjr.info> wrote:
    >> Another Yquem
    >> match is with Timbales de Sheepshead a l'Ambassadrice(does anyone know
    >> what goes in this dish?).

    >
    > Sheepshead is a fish http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheepshead_(fish) .
    > I could not find the dish made from this fish, but I did find a dish
    > called Timbale of Fillets of Sole from the late 1800s that may
    > indicate how such dishes are made. A timbale paste is made from 1
    > pound of flour, 3/4 pound butter, 5 egg yolks and some salt and water.
    > This is used to bake a large timbale shell using a special timbale
    > pan. The inside of the baked timbale is glazed( I would guess that a
    > fish or chicken glaze would be used). The sole fillets are poached in
    > butter with salt and lemon juice. Then allemande sauce with minced
    > truffles and mushrooms is added to the sole and this mixture is used
    > to fill the timbale shell. Crayfish are used to garnish the top. There
    > also is another garnish in the form of little pasta cakes with yet
    > more truffles. Such a dish would be extremely rich and would require a
    > wine of great intensity not to be over powered by it. Yquem perhaps
    > has the needed intensity, but I am not sure the match would please
    > some modern tastes.
    >
    >


    Google Books shows page 190 of Matt Kramer's Making Sense of Wine:
    "Grilled lobster; Timbales of Sheepshead with Sauce Ambassadrice {a type of
    porgy or drum fish molded and sauced with a chicken stock and cream sauce
    into which a chicken puree and whipped cream are blended}; and a Tomato
    Salad; with Chateau d'Yquem"
    Which looks like it might be the same Delmonico's menu? (page 189 isn't
    shown).
    http://preview.tinyurl.com/y99nfqh

  20. #20
    IanH Guest

    Default Re: Never to be drunk w/food

    Hi Mike,
    coming in a bit late (some might say better never than late)

    On Sun, 01 Nov 2009 15:05:09 +0100, Mike Tommasi <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    >>> True, having said that, the count of Lur Saluces thought that drinking
    >>> his Yquem on its own was ok, but drinking it with
    >>> food was much better. He suggested oysters would be a great
    >>> match.

    >>
    >> I can't reach the Count's levels of conspicuous consumption but the idea
    >> of *any* sweet wine with oysters is abhorrent to me. You might as well
    >> drink coke or lemonade!!

    >
    >I never tried it. However, it seems no worse than the idea of sweet wine
    >with foie gras. I suppose if acidity is high enough, it may pass, but
    >the idea of fat+sugar or seafood+sugar is indeed strange.


    Do you remember a meal you otganised in Turin on the occasion of the
    Slow Food jamboree to showcase sweet wines? The one with the
    pre-eminent local chef who was so far up himself that his idea of a
    food/wine match was to use some utterly unsuitable sweet wine in the
    sauce and then claim it made a match?

    Well... unless I'm greatly mistaken he served a sweet wine with
    oysters as nibbles before the meal. Maybe you refused to have anything
    to do with it, but I did try a couple. I think I'll stick to
    Amphibolite from Jo Landron.

    Coming to the original question. I have to admit that while in general
    I adore drinking sweet wines with desserts (on Thursday it will be
    Jacquie's Tarte Tatin, probably with the Cuvée de l'Abbeye Monbazillac
    '95) I don't feel that top German sweet wines are at their best when
    served with food. Actually, it's hard for me to think of any food that
    would taste better when accompanied by a Beerenauslese of great power
    and complecity either.

    Finally, to come to your comment about sweet wine and foie gras. It
    can work, I feel - think of that Sapros meal with Vinexpo where Henri
    Gagneux did so well. But where I have my reservations is over serving
    this combination as an entree (to USAians, I use this word correctly -
    as an entry into the meal - starter) . There's no way the meal can
    unfold with harmony after that. However I have, and do serve foie gras
    wih a sweet wine VERY successfully before the cheese and dessert.


    --
    All the best
    Fatty from Forges

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