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Thread: jargon

  1. #1
    RichD Guest

    Default jargon

    What does 'fat' vs. 'lean' mean, in a wine? Can
    anyone recommend an example of each, which
    I can taste side by side? Label and vintage, please.

    Also, what does structure mean?

    --
    Rich

  2. #2
    Mark Lipton Guest

    Default Re: jargon

    RichD wrote:
    > What does 'fat' vs. 'lean' mean, in a wine? Can
    > anyone recommend an example of each, which
    > I can taste side by side? Label and vintage, please.
    >


    Fat vs. lean refers to the level of acidity in the wine. A wine high in
    acidity will taste "lean"; one low in acidity "fat." This is further
    modified by the degree of extraction (phenolic extract or dry extract)
    in that wine, with the greater extraction reducing perceived leanness
    and v.v. A good example of a "lean" wine is almost any Italian white
    wine. Pick up the latest vintage of a Bolla Soave. For a "fat" wine,
    try a cheap Aussie Shiraz. The lastest version of Yellowtail Shiraz
    should serve admirably in that regard (once you get past the sweetness
    of the residual sugar).


    > Also, what does structure mean?


    Structure refers to the combination of acidity and tannins, especially
    in the context of red wine, that help make a wine ageworthy. From a
    sensory perspective, structure is associated with increased astringency
    (bitterness) and increased sourness (acidity). A highly structured wine
    won't be very pleasant to taste in its youth, in most cases.


    If you have more questions of this sort, you might want to invest in a
    good general knowledge guide to wine, such as Karen MacNeil's Wine Bible
    or Making Sense of Wine by Matt Kramer.

    Mark Lipton

  3. #3
    RichD Guest

    Default Re: jargon

    On Feb 12, Mark Lipton <not...@eudrup.ude> wrote:
    > > What does 'fat' vs. 'lean' mean, in a wine? *Can
    > > anyone recommend an example of each, which
    > > I can taste side by side? *Label and vintage, please.


    Sorry, I forgot about this one.

    > Fat vs. lean refers to the level of acidity in the wine. *A wine high in
    > acidity will taste "lean"; one low in acidity "fat." *This is further
    > modified by the degree of extraction (phenolic extract or dry extract)
    > in that wine, with the greater extraction reducing perceived leanness
    > and v.v.


    ok, that's helpful.

    > A good example of a "lean" wine is almost any Italian white
    > wine. *Pick up the latest vintage of a Bolla Soave.


    plonk?

    > For a "fat" wine, try a cheap Aussie Shiraz. *The lastest
    > version of Yellowtail Shiraz should serve admirably in that
    > regard (once you get past the sweetness
    > of the residual sugar).


    plonk?


    > > Also, what does structure mean?

    >
    > Structure refers to the combination of acidity and tannins,
    > especially in the context of red wine, that help make a wine
    > ageworthy. *From a sensory perspective, structure is
    > associated with increased astringency
    > (bitterness) and increased sourness (acidity). *A highly structured
    > wine won't be very pleasant to taste in its youth, in most cases.


    That brings up another question - which wines are
    selected for aging, why, how? Which you've addressed.
    Is a wine produced with storage in mind, or is that
    decided after it comes out of the barrel?

    I mostly avoid red wines, on account of the tannins.
    That signals a wine intended for aging, to smooth
    out. But overwhelmingly, people drink them young.
    I don't get it - they enjoy a beverage which makes
    them pucker?

    Can you a suggest a wine which is acidic but not
    tannic, and vice versa?

    > If you have more questions of this sort, you might want to invest
    > in a good general knowledge guide to wine, such as Karen
    > MacNeil's Wine Bible or Making Sense of Wine by Matt Kramer.


    Will do -

    --
    Rich


  4. #4
    Doug Anderson Guest

    Default Re: jargon

    RichD <[email protected]> writes:

    > On Feb 12, Mark Lipton <not...@eudrup.ude> wrote:
    > > > What does 'fat' vs. 'lean' mean, in a wine? *Can
    > > > anyone recommend an example of each, which
    > > > I can taste side by side? *Label and vintage, please.

    >
    > Sorry, I forgot about this one.
    >
    > > Fat vs. lean refers to the level of acidity in the wine. *A wine high in
    > > acidity will taste "lean"; one low in acidity "fat." *This is further
    > > modified by the degree of extraction (phenolic extract or dry extract)
    > > in that wine, with the greater extraction reducing perceived leanness
    > > and v.v.

    >
    > ok, that's helpful.
    >
    > > A good example of a "lean" wine is almost any Italian white
    > > wine. *Pick up the latest vintage of a Bolla Soave.

    >
    > plonk?
    >
    > > For a "fat" wine, try a cheap Aussie Shiraz. *The lastest
    > > version of Yellowtail Shiraz should serve admirably in that
    > > regard (once you get past the sweetness
    > > of the residual sugar).

    >
    > plonk?


    Why this question? Certainly both are cheap and popular
    wines - he was trying to give you examples that are easily
    available and don't cost much.

    I suppose I'd characterize Yellowtail as plonk, but so what?

    > > > Also, what does structure mean?

    > >
    > > Structure refers to the combination of acidity and tannins,
    > > especially in the context of red wine, that help make a wine
    > > ageworthy. *From a sensory perspective, structure is
    > > associated with increased astringency
    > > (bitterness) and increased sourness (acidity). *A highly structured
    > > wine won't be very pleasant to taste in its youth, in most cases.

    >
    > That brings up another question - which wines are
    > selected for aging, why, how? Which you've addressed.
    > Is a wine produced with storage in mind, or is that
    > decided after it comes out of the barrel?


    Wines are produced with aging in mind, or (for the most
    part) not.

    > I mostly avoid red wines, on account of the tannins.
    > That signals a wine intended for aging, to smooth
    > out. But overwhelmingly, people drink them young.
    > I don't get it - they enjoy a beverage which makes
    > them pucker?
    >
    > Can you a suggest a wine which is acidic but not
    > tannic, and vice versa?


    Pinot noir tends to be acidic and not tannic. Valpolicella
    also tends to be acidic and not tannic.

    The aforementioned Yellowtail Shiraz is often tannic with less
    acidity.

  5. #5
    Mike Tommasi Guest

    Default Re: jargon

    On 23/03/2012 15:56, Doug Anderson wrote:
    >
    > Pinot noir tends to be acidic and not tannic. Valpolicella
    > also tends to be acidic and not tannic.


    Sorry, I disagree Doug... in a nice way of course :-)

    Does the lower colour density imply lower tannin? I don't think there is
    ANY correlation. Macerate white grapes (vinify them as a red) and that
    (slightly off white) wine will be tannic too.

    Would you not agree that Burgundies ARE in fact tannic (and how!), and
    so is Amarone (and how!)...?

    So I would say wine from PN is maybe SLIGHTLY less tannic than, say, a
    cab madewith the same technique, but I would not say they are NOT tannic.

    A better example of a definitely low tannin wine is Beaujolais.

    As for Lambrusco, well, I have had some low yield well extracted wines
    from that area that are as tannic as the next wine.

  6. #6
    Doug Anderson Guest

    Default Re: jargon

    Mike Tommasi <[email protected]> writes:

    > On 23/03/2012 15:56, Doug Anderson wrote:
    > >
    > > Pinot noir tends to be acidic and not tannic. Valpolicella
    > > also tends to be acidic and not tannic.

    >
    > Sorry, I disagree Doug... in a nice way of course :-)


    I'm guilty of over-generalizing.

    > Does the lower colour density imply lower tannin? I don't think there
    > is ANY correlation. Macerate white grapes (vinify them as a red) and
    > that (slightly off white) wine will be tannic too.
    >
    > Would you not agree that Burgundies ARE in fact tannic (and how!), and
    > so is Amarone (and how!)...?


    Sadly I've had too few Amarones to venture an opinion on them.

    My experience with Burgundy is less limited but also quite limited
    compared to yours and I've found them considerably less tannic than
    (for example) Bordeaux, though of course this depends some on the
    wine-making.

    My experience with US PN, in particular from Oregon is considerable
    and these wines are generally not particularly tannic.

    > So I would say wine from PN is maybe SLIGHTLY less tannic than, say, a
    > cab madewith the same technique, but I would not say they are NOT
    > tannic.
    >
    > A better example of a definitely low tannin wine is Beaujolais.


    Agreed.

  7. #7
    Martin Field Guest

    Default Re: jargon



    "Mike Tommasi" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]..
    > On 23/03/2012 15:56, Doug Anderson wrote:
    >>
    >> Pinot noir tends to be acidic and not tannic. Valpolicella
    >> also tends to be acidic and not tannic.

    >
    > Sorry, I disagree Doug... in a nice way of course :-)
    >
    > Does the lower colour density imply lower tannin? I don't think there is
    > ANY correlation. Macerate white grapes (vinify them as a red) and that
    > (slightly off white) wine will be tannic too.
    >
    > Would you not agree that Burgundies ARE in fact tannic (and how!), and so
    > is Amarone (and how!)...?
    >
    > So I would say wine from PN is maybe SLIGHTLY less tannic than, say, a cab
    > madewith the same technique, but I would not say they are NOT tannic.
    >
    > A better example of a definitely low tannin wine is Beaujolais.
    >
    > As for Lambrusco, well, I have had some low yield well extracted wines
    > from that area that are as tannic as the next wine.


    Not forgetting wood tannins from oak treatment.

    Cheers!

    Martin


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