Thread: jargon

On Aug 26, 12:07*am, RichD <r_delaney2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I'm fairly new to sophisticated wines, and need some
> help trying to understand the descriptions tasters use.
>
> I understand what is meant by fruity, spicy, sweet,
> dry, those are straightforward. *But what is mineral,
> or earthy? *I don't normally chew on dirt, and don't
> see the attraction here. *And what about buttery?
> (which applies to chardonnay only, apparently)
>
> Also. heavy/light, simple/complex, body, structure,
> texture... can anyone explain these?
>
> Tannic vs. acidic is also unclear. *Tannic wines make
> you pucker, right? *I don't get it, are there really drinkers
> who enjoy that? *And is acidic different than tannic? *If
> anyone could a list of tannic vs. acid wines, I'll try
> them side by side.
>
> What's the deal on oaked vs not oaked? *Haven't
> brewers been aging wine in oak barrels since Socrates?
>
> Thanks,
>
> --
> Rich

Lots of questions!
OK, a few quick replies, from a non-scientist
I think in Socrates' time amphora might have been more common. And
brewers make beer.
Most references to "oaked" have to do with new oak (first use
barrels). Older barrels (and larger containers like foudres, with more
surface space), impart more direct oak flavors. Some people like new
oak more than others.

Tannins and acids are not really related. A wine can be low acid low
tannin, high acid low tannin,. low acid high tannin, high acid high
tannin, and all variations in between. Tannins (yes, they can make you
pucker) provide structure- in the short term maybe good for dealing
with fat in rare meat, in long term can help age. Tannins and acids
should be in balance, but what that means varies to different people.
Without knowing what is available to you, hard to recommend specific
wines, because of availabilty. As a GROSS generalization, Loire Cab
Franc would be more acidic than Languedoc reds, etc.

When Chardonnay undergoes malolactic fermentation (malic acid to
lactic acids) certain malobacters can produce diacetyl, a substance
which is in butter and is added to margarine or "movie butter" to give
it the buttery flavor.

Earth and minerals are inexact terms to try and capture some of the
non-fruit based flavors in wines.

DaleW wrote:

>> I understand what is meant by fruity, spicy, sweet,
>> dry, those are straightforward. But what is mineral,
>> or earthy? I don't normally chew on dirt, and don't
>> see the attraction here. And what about buttery?
>> (which applies to chardonnay only, apparently)
>>
>> Also. heavy/light, simple/complex, body, structure,
>> texture... can anyone explain these?
>>
>> Tannic vs. acidic is also unclear. Tannic wines make
>> you pucker, right? I don't get it, are there really drinkers
>> who enjoy that? And is acidic different than tannic? If
>> anyone could a list of tannic vs. acid wines, I'll try
>> them side by side.
>>
>> What's the deal on oaked vs not oaked? Haven't
>> brewers been aging wine in oak barrels since Socrates?

> Most references to "oaked" have to do with new oak (first use
> barrels). Older barrels (and larger containers like foudres, with more
> surface space), impart more direct oak flavors.

I'm pretty sure that Dale meant that older barrels impart LESS direct
oak flavors. The flavor of new oak has several forms: American oak
often gives a vanilla-like flavor to wine, whereas French oak often
gives flavors akin to baking spices (cinnamon and nutmeg, mostly). If
the oak has been toasted, you also get toast-like flavors, and all oak
imparts tannins to wine (oak is HUGELY tannic -- ever tried eating an
acorn?)

The words you mention, Rich, describe lots of different things:

"earthy" and "mineral" describe smells. Most of what we get from wine
is from what we smell (even what we taste is mostly smelled). So, don't
you know what freshly turned earth or forest floor smells like? What
hot rocks smell like? That's what those terms reference.

"heavy," "light," "body" and "structure" have to do with mouth feel, the
tactile sensation of having the wine in your mouth. A milkshake feels
thicker in the mouth than a cup of tea, right? It would be a heavier
beverage. More subtly, coffee is usually a heavier beverage than tea.
The "body" of a wine describes how thick and heavy it feels. Full body
= big and thick; light body = thin and light.

"tannic" is also a tactile term. In the extreme, tannins make your
mouth pucker, but they also impart a sense of roughness to the mouthfeel
and also can contribute to the body of the wine. Most young red wines
will have some amount of tannic feel to them, but that fades with time,
which is why we age some red wines before drinking them. Some people
_do_ seem to like the feel of tannic red wines, though (they do go well
with steak, f'rinstance).

"acidic" has to do with how crisp or soft the wine seems. It has a lot
to do with the aftertaste. A crisp, acidic wine will leave little
aftertaste, whereas a soft, non-acidic wine will have a mouth-coating
feel to it. Think about the differences in aftertaste between milk
(soft) and tea or coffee (acidic).

For a more detailed discussion of these and other terms, you might
consider getting a book like Hugh Johnson's "Pocket Wine Book" (cost:
$10 from Amazon) which has a detailed glossary of wine terms as well as
a lot of other useful information about wine.

HTH
Mark Lipton

--
alt.food.wine FAQ: http://winefaq.cwdjr.net

>
> I'm pretty sure that Dale meant that older barrels impart LESS direct
> oak flavors. *

yes, typing too fast. Typically new oak barrels can impart a lot of
oak flavors, barrels used once less, twice even less, after that
virtually none. Smaller barrels have more surface area compared to
volume, so typically even new foudres or botti (often 1000 liters or
much more) would give less oak than new barriques (225 liters).

A good book is an excellent idea. The Johnson pocket is good, but you
could also try the Dummies series, The Wine Bible, or Andrea Immers,
all of which devote pages to each of these subjects.

"DaleW" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

>
> I'm pretty sure that Dale meant that older barrels impart LESS direct
> oak flavors.

yes, typing too fast. Typically new oak barrels can impart a lot of
oak flavors, barrels used once less, twice even less, after that
virtually none. Smaller barrels have more surface area compared to
volume, so typically even new foudres or botti (often 1000 liters or
much more) would give less oak than new barriques (225 liters).

A good book is an excellent idea. The Johnson pocket is good, but you
could also try the Dummies series, The Wine Bible, or Andrea Immers,
all of which devote pages to each of these subjects.
-----------------------------------------------------------

But do they explain the word "finesse", which one often sees in UK reviews?
Graham

"graham" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:moilm.154708$[email protected]..
|
| "DaleW" <[email protected]> wrote in message
|
news:[email protected]...
|
| >
| > I'm pretty sure that Dale meant that older barrels impart LESS
direct
| > oak flavors.
|
| yes, typing too fast. Typically new oak barrels can impart a lot of
| oak flavors, barrels used once less, twice even less, after that
| virtually none. Smaller barrels have more surface area compared to
| volume, so typically even new foudres or botti (often 1000 liters or
| much more) would give less oak than new barriques (225 liters).
|
| A good book is an excellent idea. The Johnson pocket is good, but you
| could also try the Dummies series, The Wine Bible, or Andrea Immers,
| all of which devote pages to each of these subjects.
| -----------------------------------------------------------
|
| But do they explain the word "finesse", which one often sees in UK
reviews?
| Graham
|
|

I'd like to know about another, newish wine term that is gaining
currency:
what is a reductive wine?
how would I identify it in a wine?

cheers greybeard

On Aug 26, 7:18*pm, "greybeard" <nob...@nowhere.com> wrote:
> "graham" <gste...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
>
> news:moilm.154708$[email protected]..
> || "DaleW" <Dwmi...@aol.com> wrote in message
>
> |news:[email protected]....
> |
> | >
> | > I'm pretty sure that Dale meant that older barrels impart LESS
> direct
> | > oak flavors.
> |
> | yes, typing too fast. Typically new oak barrels can impart a lot of
> | oak flavors, barrels used once less, twice even less, after that
> | virtually none. Smaller barrels have more surface area compared to
> | volume, so typically even new foudres or botti (often 1000 liters or
> | much more) would give less oak than new barriques (225 liters).
> |
> | A good book is an excellent idea. The Johnson pocket *is good, but you
> | could also try the Dummies series, The Wine Bible, or Andrea Immers,
> | all of which devote pages to each of these subjects.
> | -----------------------------------------------------------
> |
> | But do they explain the word "finesse", which one often sees in UK
> reviews?
> | Graham
> |
> |
>
> I'd like to know about another, newish wine term that is gaining
> currency:
> what is a reductive wine?
> how would I identify it in a wine?
>
> cheers greybeard

Graham,
I don't think there is any effective way to define "finesse" (or sexy,
elegant, lush, slutty, etc) or other common words in a purely wine
sense. I'd tend to assume that the writer is telling me it's not a
fruitbomb, it's not jammy, etc. It's not exact, but if I wanted
exactitude I'd just read a sheet with TA, ph, dry extract, abv, rs, A
lot of wine tasting notes is BS, but of what is left, the best (for my
tastes) uses metaphor, simile, poetry, and jokes.

Greybeard,
reduction is the opposite of oxidation. It's the opposite of seeing
too much oxygen. Dr Lipton can explain better, but in the worse cases
of reduction you have mercaptans (in worse cases smells of rotten eggs
or burning rubbers). In lesser cases you get less objectionable,
especially sulphur (just lit matches) odors.
By the way, these things are pretty personal as to perception, and for
instance I am fairly insensitive to reductive aromas.

"RichD" <[email protected]> skrev i melding
news:[email protected]...
> I'm fairly new to sophisticated wines, and need some
> help trying to understand the descriptions tasters use.
>
> I understand what is meant by fruity, spicy, sweet,
> dry, those are straightforward. But what is mineral,
> or earthy? I don't normally chew on dirt, and don't
> see the attraction here. And what about buttery?
> (which applies to chardonnay only, apparently)
>
Mineral: Think of the smell you get when you bang two stones together
Earth: Think of the smell of wet soil after rain (depends on where you
live, I think)
>
> Also. heavy/light, simple/complex, body, structure,
> texture... can anyone explain these?
>
A light wine example is an ordinary red Beaujolais or a white vinho verde
from Portugal - simple and refreshing and easy to drink
A heavy wine would be a red Amarone from Italy or a Zinfandel from
California - viscous and alcoholic with much taste.
Simple: Onedimensional, short
Complex: Layers of taste, changing all the time, long lasting and varying
sensation in mouth
Body: Mouthfilling, chewy
Structure: The combination of various parts of the wine - smell, taste,
texture, complexity. A well structured wine is where the parts form a
harmonious whole.
> Tannic vs. acidic is also unclear. Tannic wines make
> you pucker, right? I don't get it, are there really drinkers
> who enjoy that? And is acidic different than tannic? If
> anyone could a list of tannic vs. acid wines, I'll try
> them side by side.
>
Tannins are astringent. Eat banana peels.
Acids are sour. Eat lemons.

Tannic wines are mostly red ones. They will often need maturing to round
off, in a few cases up to 15-20 years... Tannins are often desired as being
the backbone of a wine structure. Some, like me, do appreciate tannic
wines, others prefer softer wines.
Acid wines are often white ones. Acids often diminish during storage and
thus you'll find more acids with younger whites with the result being a
sensation of freshness, even zing. Sweet whites will often need a high
degree of acidity to be considered balanced (well structured :-). A high
acidity is
> What's the deal on oaked vs not oaked? Haven't
> brewers been aging wine in oak barrels since Socrates?
>
Right. However, new oak barrels flavor wine very much more strongly. In
Europe barrels were used and reused for long times and so only a small part
of the wine saw new barrels. The blended end result would then have only a
moderate influence from oak.
In the US, notably, oak was taken as a quality marker and so the public
looked for wines with a heavy oak taste to the extent that some wine makers
not only used all new barrels but also filled up with oak wood chippings...
(that is not quite true... it was steel tanks that received wood chips :-)
Btw, most ordinary wine sees little oak wood but are fermented in steel
tanks. The use of oak barrels has largely disappeared in Germany, the
preference being for maximum fruitiness in all wines, up to the expensivest
ones.

Fortunately, the overly heavyhanded use of oak so common in the 1980ies has
diminished...
For some wines oak still is necessary to give a desired structure and
backbone.

hth
Anders

graham wrote on Wed, 26 Aug 2009 16:09:21 -0600:

>> I'm pretty sure that Dale meant that older barrels impart
>> LESS direct oak flavors.

> yes, typing too fast. Typically new oak barrels can impart a
> lot of oak flavors, barrels used once less, twice even less,
> after that virtually none. Smaller barrels have more surface
> area compared to volume, so typically even new foudres or
> botti (often 1000 liters or much more) would give less oak
> than new barriques (225 liters).

> A good book is an excellent idea. The Johnson pocket is good,
> but you could also try the Dummies series, The Wine Bible, or Andrea
> Immers, all of which devote pages to each of these
> subjects.
> -----------------------------------------------------------

When I was last in London, I saw (expensive) wine-tasting kits with
vials of liquids for various tasters' terms like "black-currant",
"oaked" etc. As I write this, I think I remember this was at a place
called "Vinopolis", the wine museum.

--

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

"DaleW" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
On Aug 26, 7:18 pm, "greybeard" <nob...@nowhere.com> wrote:
> "graham" <gste...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
>
> news:moilm.154708$[email protected]..
> || "DaleW" <Dwmi...@aol.com> wrote in message
>
> |news:[email protected]...
> |
> | >
> | > I'm pretty sure that Dale meant that older barrels impart LESS
> direct
> | > oak flavors.
> |
> | yes, typing too fast. Typically new oak barrels can impart a lot of
> | oak flavors, barrels used once less, twice even less, after that
> | virtually none. Smaller barrels have more surface area compared to
> | volume, so typically even new foudres or botti (often 1000 liters or
> | much more) would give less oak than new barriques (225 liters).
> |
> | A good book is an excellent idea. The Johnson pocket is good, but you
> | could also try the Dummies series, The Wine Bible, or Andrea Immers,
> | all of which devote pages to each of these subjects.
> | -----------------------------------------------------------
> |
> | But do they explain the word "finesse", which one often sees in UK
> reviews?
> | Graham
> |
Graham,
I don't think there is any effective way to define "finesse" (or sexy,
elegant, lush, slutty, etc) or other common words in a purely wine
sense. I'd tend to assume that the writer is telling me it's not a
fruitbomb, it's not jammy, etc. It's not exact, but if I wanted
exactitude I'd just read a sheet with TA, ph, dry extract, abv, rs, A
lot of wine tasting notes is BS, but of what is left, the best (for my
tastes) uses metaphor, simile, poetry, and jokes.

-------------------------------------------
Dale:
Thanks for that! It's one of those subtle and vague terms that some English
writers are overfond of using.
Graham

On Thu, 27 Aug 2009 07:48:08 -0600, "graham" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"DaleW" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>On Aug 26, 7:18 pm, "greybeard" <nob...@nowhere.com> wrote:
>> "graham" <gste...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
>>
>> news:moilm.154708$[email protected]..
>> || "DaleW" <Dwmi...@aol.com> wrote in message
>>
>> |news:[email protected]...
>> |
>> | >
>> | > I'm pretty sure that Dale meant that older barrels impart LESS
>> direct
>> | > oak flavors.
>> |
>> | yes, typing too fast. Typically new oak barrels can impart a lot of
>> | oak flavors, barrels used once less, twice even less, after that
>> | virtually none. Smaller barrels have more surface area compared to
>> | volume, so typically even new foudres or botti (often 1000 liters or
>> | much more) would give less oak than new barriques (225 liters).
>> |
>> | A good book is an excellent idea. The Johnson pocket is good, but you
>> | could also try the Dummies series, The Wine Bible, or Andrea Immers,
>> | all of which devote pages to each of these subjects.
>> | -----------------------------------------------------------
>> |
>> | But do they explain the word "finesse", which one often sees in UK
>> reviews?
>> | Graham
>> |
>Graham,
>I don't think there is any effective way to define "finesse" (or sexy,
>elegant, lush, slutty, etc) or other common words in a purely wine
>sense. I'd tend to assume that the writer is telling me it's not a
>fruitbomb, it's not jammy, etc. It's not exact, but if I wanted
>exactitude I'd just read a sheet with TA, ph, dry extract, abv, rs, A
>lot of wine tasting notes is BS, but of what is left, the best (for my
>tastes) uses metaphor, simile, poetry, and jokes.
>
>-------------------------------------------
>Dale:
>Thanks for that! It's one of those subtle and vague terms that some English
>writers are overfond of using.
>Graham
>
Finesse is one of my favorite wine words For me it refers to a wine
that does not overpower, but has a gentle approach ie not a fruitbomb.
Joseph Coulter
Joseph Coulter Cruises and Vacations
www.josephcoulter.com

On Thu, 27 Aug 2009 16:59:15 -0400, Joseph Coulter <[email protected]>
wrote:

>>Thanks for that! It's one of those subtle and vague terms that some English
>>writers are overfond of using.
>>Graham
>>
>Finesse is one of my favorite wine words For me it refers to a wine
>that does not overpower, but has a gentle approach ie not a fruitbomb.
>Joseph Coulter
>Joseph Coulter Cruises and Vacations
>www.josephcoulter.com

I still think that the definition of finesse in the Chambers
Dictionary sums it up perfectly "subtle intention of design".

A wine with finesse is subtle, balanced and beautiful rather than
loud, brash and in your face.

Think Chanel's little black dress or Michael Broadbent's tailor. :-)

James

On Aug 26, 5:52*pm, DaleW <Dwmi...@aol.com> wrote:
> On Aug 26, 7:18*pm, "greybeard" <nob...@nowhere.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "graham" <gste...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
>
> >news:moilm.154708$[email protected]..
> > || "DaleW" <Dwmi...@aol.com> wrote in message
>
> > |news:[email protected]....
> > |
> > | >
> > | > I'm pretty sure that Dale meant that older barrels impart LESS
> > direct
> > | > oak flavors.
> > |
> > | yes, typing too fast. Typically new oak barrels can impart a lot of
> > | oak flavors, barrels used once less, twice even less, after that
> > | virtually none. Smaller barrels have more surface area compared to
> > | volume, so typically even new foudres or botti (often 1000 liters or
> > | much more) would give less oak than new barriques (225 liters).
> > |
> > | A good book is an excellent idea. The Johnson pocket *is good, but you
> > | could also try the Dummies series, The Wine Bible, or Andrea Immers,
> > | all of which devote pages to each of these subjects.
> > | -----------------------------------------------------------
> > |
> > | But do they explain the word "finesse", which one often sees in UK
> > reviews?
> > | Graham
> > |
> > |
>
> > I'd like to know about another, newish wine term that is gaining
> > currency:
> > what is a reductive wine?
> > how would I identify it in a wine?
>
> > cheers greybeard
>
> Graham,
> I don't think there is any effective way to define "finesse" (or sexy,
> elegant, lush, slutty, etc) or other common words in a purely wine
> sense. I'd tend to assume that the writer is telling me it's not a
> fruitbomb, it's not jammy, etc. It's not exact, but if I wanted
> exactitude I'd just read a sheet with TA, ph, dry extract, abv, rs, A
> lot of wine tasting notes is BS, but of what is left, the best (for my
> tastes) uses metaphor, simile, poetry, and jokes.
>
> Greybeard,
> reduction is the opposite of oxidation. It's the opposite of seeing
> too much oxygen. Dr Lipton can explain better, but in the worse cases
> of reduction you have mercaptans (in worse cases smells of rotten eggs
> or burning rubbers). In lesser cases you get less objectionable,
> especially sulphur (just lit matches) odors.
> By the way, these things are pretty personal as to perception, and for
> instance I am fairly insensitive to reductive aromas.

Greetings:

I have not posted to this group for several years, but I find this is
an interesting thread! I have been a winemaker in Napa/Sonoma for
many years, and currently I'm in the barrel business. I won't discuss
oak at this time, but I want to expound a bit on oxidation and
reduction.

Everything which has been explained is correct, except one comment
which needs clarification, and I'll get to that at the end.

There is a whole sub-study of wine chemistry (and of chemistry in
general) which is about "Redox" (oxidation vs. reduction). It is a
delicate balance. It is of supreme importance, because wine is a
fragile product and depending on cellar technique, wines could go off
in either direction during cellaring at the winery.

Bottled wines also evolve in the same way, but mostly in the direction
of oxidation as they age.

Oxidation obviously means what it says, We have all probably
experienced oxidized wines at one time or another, because of loose
corks or simply holding wines until they are past their peak. Proper
storage is the issue here, keeping the cork wet and forming a tight
seal by storing the bottle on its side. But temperature and sunlight
are are also agents which hasten oxidation, and we don't need to get
into that, because I think everyone knows about this.

One point I will make about bottled wines is that corks deteriorate
over time, when they are constantly saturated. I opened some wines
from the early '70s recently, whose corks simply fell apart as I used
my corkscrew. They had been great wines in their time, but I'm glad I
didn't bring them to a dinner party. Collectors of extremely rare and
expensive wines should have them re-corked every 20 years or so, and
the grand crus of Bordeaux offer this service on a periodic basis. If
you re-cork one of these heirlooms, it must be done by the chateau to
prevent fraud (and they do world tours, so you don't have to take your
wine to France).

OK, so let's summarize oxidation. Ethyl alcohol, if in low
concentrations like table wine (not in high proof spirits), will
combine with oxygen to form acetaldehyde.

Acetaldehyde is the smell of sherry. Obviously, Sherry, Madeira, Vin
Santo, tawny Port and old style Hungarian Tokaji are the deliberate
work of winemakers to incorporate an oxidated aroma and taste to their
wines. But the technique is finely controlled, and the most expert
examples are marvels of complexity: at this low level, the aromas have
an incredible nuttiness, like the hazel nut aromas in additives to
coffee.

But it's an acquired taste. Some people can't stand sherry, and I
don't blame them. I couldn't, for years. To subject clean fruit to
this punishment is an abomination to some, but in Jerez and Tuscany
it's an art. It all depends on one's tolerance for manipulated wine.
Now, I think a fino sherry or an aged Tokaji are fabulous.

Then acetaldehyde, in the presence of more oxygen, becomes acetic
acid, which is vinegar. No need to explain that. The process is
sometimes hastened by the accidental or careless presence of
acetobacter bacteria, but it will happen anyway. The term, "VA",
meaning volatile acidity, is the wine tasters' term for wines which
may not have gone all the way to vinegar, but have that piercing smell
and a burning sense in the aftertaste. Some people actually appreciate
minute traces of VA in a wine, because it may push the fruit forward
slightly in the nose, but I don't. Tolerance levels vary among each of
us.

It gets worse. The final stage gets ugly. Acetic acid molecules re-
combine with ethyl alcohol to form ethyl acetate, which is the odor of
nail polish remover. Wines like this have no redeeming social value.
However, if this ever happens in a bottled wine, you wouldn't want to
get near it; it's way too far gone.

So what are the benefits of oxidation? Oxygen doesn't only affect the
alcohol part of a wine, it affects the total package. Slow oxidation
(as in barrels) matures wine, makes it softer by cancelling out
tannins. Tannins in red wines are the natural anti-oxidants, and so a
careful introduction of oxygen is a good thing for youthful, robust
red wines. In fact, for tank aged cheaper reds, there is a process
called "micro-oxygenation" (developed in SW France around 1990, and
now used everywhere), which incorporates something like a fish bubbler
for aquariums. Oxygen is metered in slowly with a bubbler, and there's
a whole technology and formulae about how much oxygen to introduce.

Moving on to the OPPOSITE side of the coin, because reduction is the
literal opposite of oxidation: in the ABSENCE of oxygen, organic
matter decomposes anerobically, producing hydrogen sulfide. The smell
of the debris from a pond floor, or a swamp, is a perfect example.
Wine tasters refer to this as the "rotten egg smell", because a
decomposed egg yolk IS literally loaded with sulfur to produce H2S
(why else the yellow color? I can't say)

Has anyone read about the piles of decomposing algae on the French
beaches of Brittany this summer? They are deadly. Farmers are using
too much nitrogen fertilizer, and the runoff from rain is causing
enormous algae blooms off the beaches, and when the algae is washed
ashore, it forms piles which release enormous quantities of hydrogen
sulfide gas (H2S), which has actually killed several people.

The same takes place in the microcosm of a wine barrel. Winemakers are
becoming more "natural", and leaving the wine on the lees (the spent
yeast which forms a deposit in the bilge of a barrel), in the efforts
of acquiring more character. For chardonnay, this is de regeur, and
chardonnay producers often stir the lees on a regular basis, to
acquire the aromas of yeast autolysis (which promotes the breakdown of
the yeast, cracking open the yeast cells, yielding a wonderful,
toasty, bready aroma, which has little to do with reduction).

But if left unattended, this spent yeast often decomposes into
products which produce hydrogen sulfide. This is particularly true of
red wines, because aside from the yeast, there are various solids from
the grape skins which settle into the bottom of the barrel. Intensely
pigmented wine such as syrah is especially prone to reduction. I
hardly ever notice H2S in light red wines such as pinot noir.

So what do we have? H2S, hydrogen sulfide, the rotten egg smell,
which is not toxic in these trace amounts, but enough to be an
annoyance. Oxygen in the early stages may take care of the matter.
This is why classic French cellar technique is to "rack" the barrels,
that is, to transfer the wine out of the barrel into a tank or another
barrel, to get it off the lees. Bordelais tradition was once every
trimester during the first year (which also involves having the wine
exposed to air), and little or no racking during the second year,
because the wine by then was presumed "clean".

For persistent H2S problems in the winery, winemakers have used copper
sulfate (commonly used in sewage treatment), but any amount over 1 ppm
is detectable in sensory analysis and legally on shaky ground.

I used it only once, on a freshly fermented wine, theorizing that the
cupric sulfide product of chemical bonds would adhere to the suspended
yeast and settle out as a precipitate with the lees. My hunch was
confirmed on subsequent analysis!

If you are getting real, honest-to-goodness rotten egg smell in a
bottled red wine, it probably means the wine was unfiltered, and there
are probably deposits in the bottle which produced this in situ, not
necessarily at the winery.

But the issue and the definition raised here in the post I am replying
to, is what is reduction in most bottled wine? It's not H2S. It's
what the writer referred to as the "rubbery" smell. This is not H2S,
it's ethyl mercaptans. This, like ethyl acetate in oxidation, is when
the ethyl alcohol molecule bonds with H2S, and we have a whole
different animal here.

The statement by the previous writer that H2S smells like a burnt
match is incorrect. Now you're talking about SO2, sulfur dioxide.
Not the same thing at all. SO2 remains a critical part of winemaking
operations, and while it is an additive, it's also a natural by-
product of fermentation. SO2 is a whole other topic, except to say
that it is the best antioxidant in a winemaker's arsenal, which I
should have mentioned in a previous paragraph.

Present technology is looking for ways to eliminate SO2 additions,
although it has been used in wines for thousands of years.

Mercaptans, that rubbery smell, is nearly impossible to treat at the
winery. There is a chemical treatment involving use of a cyanide
compound, but the application has to be stoichiometrically perfect,
and I'm almost sure it's not even legal anymore. Best to dump the
wine, or sell it off in bulk, to disappear in a giant million gallon
blend.

Please, nobody get the impression that most modern wines are
manipulated this way! Wine technology has progressed a long way since
I was in the field, and more careful practices in the vineyard,
involving vine nutrition, etc., and in the cellar, are making wines
cleaner and cleaner. Wine remains essentially a natural product. I
merely wanted to present a discussion of redox from the winery point
of view.

However, I still taste $5 reds (imports) which I know were treated
with copper, and cheap white wines which I know were hit with SO2 to
knock down aldehydes, but these wines are probably not what this
newsgroup is drinking, anyway.

--Bob

On Aug 30, 7:39�am, Bobchai <barrel...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Aug 26, 5:52�pm, DaleW <Dwmi...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > On Aug 26, 7:18�pm, "greybeard" <nob...@nowhere.com> wrote:
>
> > > "graham" <gste...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
>
> > >news:moilm.154708$[email protected]..
> > > || "DaleW" <Dwmi...@aol.com> wrote in message
>
> > > |news:[email protected]...
> > > |
> > > | >
> > > | > I'm pretty sure that Dale meant that older barrels impart LESS
> > > direct
> > > | > oak flavors.
> > > |
> > > | yes, typing too fast. Typically new oak barrels can impart a lot of
> > > | oak flavors, barrels used once less, twice even less, after that
> > > | virtually none. Smaller barrels have more surface area compared to
> > > | volume, so typically even new foudres or botti (often 1000 liters or
> > > | much more) would give less oak than new barriques (225 liters).
> > > |
> > > | A good book is an excellent idea. The Johnson pocket �is good, but you
> > > | could also try the Dummies series, The Wine Bible, or Andrea Immers,
> > > | all of which devote pages to each of these subjects.
> > > | -----------------------------------------------------------
> > > |
> > > | But do they explain the word "finesse", which one often sees in UK
> > > reviews?
> > > | Graham
> > > |
> > > |
>
> > > I'd like to know about another, newish wine term that is gaining
> > > currency:
> > > what is a reductive wine?
> > > how would I identify it in a wine?
>
> > > cheers greybeard
>
> > Graham,
> > I don't think there is any effective way to define "finesse" (or sexy,
> > elegant, lush, slutty, etc) or other common words in a purely wine
> > sense. I'd tend to assume that the writer is telling me it's not a
> > fruitbomb, it's not jammy, etc. It's not exact, but if I wanted
> > exactitude I'd just read a sheet with TA, ph, dry extract, abv, rs, A
> > lot of wine tasting notes is BS, but of what is left, the best (for my
> > tastes) uses metaphor, simile, poetry, and jokes.
>
> > Greybeard,
> > reduction is the opposite of oxidation. It's the opposite of seeing
> > too much oxygen. Dr Lipton can explain better, but in the worse cases
> > of reduction you have mercaptans (in worse cases smells of rotten eggs
> > or burning rubbers). In lesser cases you get less objectionable,
> > especially sulphur (just lit matches) odors.
> > By the way, these things are pretty personal as to perception, and for
> > instance I am fairly insensitive to reductive aromas.
>
> Greetings:
>
> I have not posted to this group for several years, but I find this is
> an interesting thread! �I have been a winemaker in Napa/Sonoma for
> many years, and currently I'm in the barrel business. I won't discuss
> oak at this time, but I want to expound a bit on oxidation and
> reduction.
>
> Everything which has been explained is correct, except one comment
> which needs clarification, and I'll get to that at the end.
>
> There is a whole sub-study of wine chemistry (and of chemistry in
> general) which is about "Redox" �(oxidation vs. reduction). �It is a
> delicate balance. �It is of supreme importance, because wine is a
> fragile product and depending on cellar technique, wines could go off
> in either direction during cellaring at the winery.
>
> Bottled wines also evolve in the same way, but mostly in the direction
> of oxidation as they age.
>
> Oxidation obviously means what it says, We have all probably
> experienced oxidized wines at one time or another, because of loose
> corks or simply holding wines until they are past their peak. �Proper
> storage is the issue here, keeping the cork wet and forming a tight
> seal by storing the bottle on its side. But temperature and sunlight
> are are also agents which hasten oxidation, and we don't need to get
> into that, because I think everyone knows about this.
>
> One point I will make about bottled wines is that corks deteriorate
> over time, when they are constantly saturated. �I opened some wines
> from the early '70s recently, whose corks simply fell apart as I used
> my corkscrew. �They had been great wines in their time, but I'm glad I
> didn't bring them to a dinner party. Collectors of extremely rare and
> expensive wines should have them re-corked every 20 years or so, and
> the grand crus of Bordeaux offer this service on a periodic basis. If
> you re-cork one of these heirlooms, it must be done by the chateau to
> prevent fraud (and they do world tours, so you don't have to take your
> wine to France).
>
> OK, so let's summarize oxidation. �Ethyl alcohol, if in low
> concentrations like table wine (not in high proof spirits), will
> combine with oxygen to form acetaldehyde.
>
> Acetaldehyde is the smell of sherry. Obviously, Sherry, Madeira, Vin
> Santo, tawny Port and old style Hungarian Tokaji �are the deliberate
> work of winemakers to incorporate an oxidated aroma and taste to their
> wines. But the technique is finely controlled, and the most expert
> examples are marvels of complexity: at this low level, the aromas have
> an incredible nuttiness, like the hazel nut aromas in additives to
> coffee.
>
> But it's an acquired taste. Some people can't stand sherry, and I
> don't blame them. I couldn't, for years. To subject clean fruit to
> this punishment is an abomination to some, but in Jerez and Tuscany
> it's an art. It all depends on one's tolerance for manipulated wine.
> Now, �I think a fino sherry or an aged Tokaji are fabulous.
>
> Then acetaldehyde, in the presence of more oxygen, becomes acetic
> acid, which is vinegar. �No need to explain that. �The process is
> sometimes hastened by the accidental or careless presence of
> acetobacter bacteria, but it will happen anyway. � The term, "VA",
> meaning volatile acidity, is the wine tasters' term for wines which
> may not have gone all the way to vinegar, but have that piercing smell
> and a burning sense in the aftertaste. Some people actually appreciate
> minute traces of VA in a wine, because it may push the fruit forward
> slightly in the nose, but I don't. Tolerance levels vary among each of
> us.
>
> It gets worse. The final stage gets ugly. �Acetic acid molecules re-
> combine with ethyl alcohol to form ethyl acetate, which is the odor of
> nail polish remover. Wines like this have no redeeming social value.
> However, if this ever happens in a bottled wine, you wouldn't want to
> get near it; it's way too far gone.
>
> So what are the benefits of oxidation? �Oxygen doesn't only affect the
> alcohol part of a wine, it affects the total package. Slow oxidation
> (as in barrels) matures wine, makes it softer by cancelling out
> tannins. �Tannins in red wines are the natural anti-oxidants, andso a
> careful introduction of oxygen is a good thing for youthful, robust
> red wines. In fact, for tank aged cheaper reds, there is a process
> called "micro-oxygenation" (developed in SW France around 1990, and
> now used everywhere), which incorporates something like a fish bubbler
> for aquariums. Oxygen is metered in slowly with a bubbler, and there's
> a whole technology and formulae about how much oxygen to introduce.
>
> Moving on to the OPPOSITE side of the coin, because reduction is the
> literal opposite of oxidation: in the ABSENCE of oxygen, organic
> matter decomposes anerobically, producing hydrogen sulfide. �The smell
> of the debris from a pond floor, or a swamp, is a perfect example.
> Wine tasters refer to this as the "rotten egg smell", because a
> decomposed egg yolk IS literally loaded with sulfur to produce H2S
> (why else the yellow color? �I can't say)
>
> Has anyone read about the piles of decomposing algae on the French
> beaches of Brittany this summer? �They are deadly. �Farmers are using
> too much nitrogen fertilizer, and the runoff from rain is causing
> enormous algae blooms off the beaches, and when the algae is washed
> ashore, it forms piles which release enormous quantities of hydrogen
> sulfide gas (H2S), which has actually killed several people.
>
> The same takes place in the microcosm of a wine barrel. Winemakers are
> becoming more "natural", and leaving the wine on the lees (the spent
> yeast which forms a deposit in the bilge of a barrel), in the efforts
> of acquiring more character. �For chardonnay, this is de regeur, and
> chardonnay producers often stir the lees on a regular basis, to
> acquire the aromas of yeast autolysis (which promotes the breakdown of
> the yeast, cracking open the yeast cells, yielding a wonderful,
> toasty, bready aroma, which has little to do with reduction).
>
> But if left unattended, this spent yeast often decomposes into
> products which produce hydrogen sulfide. This is particularly true of
> red wines, because aside from the yeast, there are various solids from
> the grape skins which settle into the bottom of the barrel. �Intensely
> pigmented wine such as syrah is especially prone to reduction. I
> hardly ever notice H2S in light red wines such as pinot noir.
>
> So what do we have? �H2S, hydrogen sulfide, the rotten egg smell,
> which is not toxic in these trace amounts, but enough to be an
> annoyance. Oxygen in the early stages may take care of the matter.
> This is why classic French cellar technique is to "rack" the barrels,
> that is, to transfer the wine out of the barrel into a tank or another
> barrel, to get it off the lees. �Bordelais tradition was once every
> trimester during the first year (which also involves having the wine
> exposed to air), and little or no racking during the second year,
> because the wine by then was presumed "clean".
>
> For persistent H2S problems in the winery, winemakers have used copper
> sulfate (commonly used in sewage treatment), but any amount over 1 ppm
> is detectable in sensory analysis and legally on shaky ground.
>
> I used it only once, on a freshly fermented wine, theorizing that the
> cupric sulfide product of chemical bonds would adhere to the suspended
> yeast and settle out as a precipitate with the lees. My hunch was
> confirmed on subsequent analysis!
>
> If you are getting real, honest-to-goodness rotten egg smell in a
> bottled red wine, it probably means the wine was unfiltered, and there
> are probably deposits in the bottle which produced this in situ, not
> necessarily at the winery.
>
> But the issue and the definition raised here in the post I am replying
> to, is what is reduction in most bottled wine? �It's not H2S. �It's
> what the writer referred to as the "rubbery" smell. �This is not H2S,
> it's ethyl mercaptans. �This, like ethyl acetate in oxidation, iswhen
> the ethyl alcohol molecule bonds with H2S, and we have a whole
> different animal here.
>
> The statement by the previous writer that H2S smells like a burnt
> match is incorrect. �Now you're talking about SO2, sulfur dioxide..
> Not the same thing at all. �SO2 remains a critical part of winemaking
> operations, and while it is an additive, it's also a natural by-
> product of fermentation. �SO2 is a whole other topic, except to say
> that it is the best antioxidant in a winemaker's arsenal, which I
> should have mentioned in a previous paragraph.
>
> Present technology is looking for ways to eliminate SO2 additions,
> although it has been used in wines for thousands of years.
>
> Mercaptans, that rubbery smell, �is nearly impossible to treat atthe
> winery. �There is a chemical treatment involving use of a cyanide
> compound, but the application �has to be stoichiometrically perfect,
> and I'm almost sure it's not even legal anymore. �Best to dump the
> wine, or sell it off in bulk, to disappear in a giant million gallon
> blend.
>
> Please, nobody get the impression that most modern wines are
> manipulated this way! �Wine technology has progressed a long way since
> I was in the field, and more careful practices in the vineyard,
> involving vine nutrition, etc., and in the cellar, are making wines
> cleaner and cleaner. Wine remains essentially a natural product. �I
> merely wanted to present a discussion of redox from the winery point
> of view.
>
> However, I still taste $5 reds (imports) which I know were treated
> with copper, and cheap white wines which I know were hit with SO2 to
> knock down aldehydes, but these wines are probably not what this
> newsgroup is drinking, anyway.
>
> --Bob

Bob,
Thank you for your wonderfully informative post. Welcome back!

"Bobchai" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]..
On Aug 26, 5:52 pm, DaleW <Dwmi...@aol.com> wrote:
> On Aug 26, 7:18 pm, "greybeard" <nob...@nowhere.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "graham" <gste...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
>
> >news:moilm.154708$[email protected]..
> > || "DaleW" <Dwmi...@aol.com> wrote in message
>
> > |news:[email protected]...
> > |
> > | >
> > | > I'm pretty sure that Dale meant that older barrels impart LESS
> > direct
> > | > oak flavors.
> > |
> > | yes, typing too fast. Typically new oak barrels can impart a lot
> > of
> > | oak flavors, barrels used once less, twice even less, after that
> > | virtually none. Smaller barrels have more surface area compared to
> > | volume, so typically even new foudres or botti (often 1000 liters
> > or
> > | much more) would give less oak than new barriques (225 liters).
> > |
> > | A good book is an excellent idea. The Johnson pocket is good, but
> > you
> > | could also try the Dummies series, The Wine Bible, or Andrea
> > Immers,
> > | all of which devote pages to each of these subjects.
> > | -----------------------------------------------------------
> > |
> > | But do they explain the word "finesse", which one often sees in UK
> > reviews?
> > | Graham
> > |
> > |
>
> > I'd like to know about another, newish wine term that is gaining
> > currency:
> > what is a reductive wine?
> > how would I identify it in a wine?
>
> > cheers greybeard
>
> Graham,
> I don't think there is any effective way to define "finesse" (or sexy,
> elegant, lush, slutty, etc) or other common words in a purely wine
> sense. I'd tend to assume that the writer is telling me it's not a
> fruitbomb, it's not jammy, etc. It's not exact, but if I wanted
> exactitude I'd just read a sheet with TA, ph, dry extract, abv, rs, A
> lot of wine tasting notes is BS, but of what is left, the best (for my
> tastes) uses metaphor, simile, poetry, and jokes.
>
> Greybeard,
> reduction is the opposite of oxidation. It's the opposite of seeing
> too much oxygen. Dr Lipton can explain better, but in the worse cases
> of reduction you have mercaptans (in worse cases smells of rotten eggs
> or burning rubbers). In lesser cases you get less objectionable,
> especially sulphur (just lit matches) odors.
> By the way, these things are pretty personal as to perception, and for
> instance I am fairly insensitive to reductive aromas.

Greetings:

I have not posted to this group for several years, but I find this is
an interesting thread! I have been a winemaker in Napa/Sonoma for
many years, and currently I'm in the barrel business. I won't discuss
oak at this time, but I want to expound a bit on oxidation and
reduction.

Everything which has been explained is correct, except one comment
which needs clarification, and I'll get to that at the end.

There is a whole sub-study of wine chemistry (and of chemistry in
general) which is about "Redox" (oxidation vs. reduction). It is a
delicate balance. It is of supreme importance, because wine is a
fragile product and depending on cellar technique, wines could go off
in either direction during cellaring at the winery.

Bottled wines also evolve in the same way, but mostly in the direction
of oxidation as they age.

Oxidation obviously means what it says, We have all probably
experienced oxidized wines at one time or another, because of loose
corks or simply holding wines until they are past their peak. Proper
storage is the issue here, keeping the cork wet and forming a tight
seal by storing the bottle on its side. But temperature and sunlight
are are also agents which hasten oxidation, and we don't need to get
into that, because I think everyone knows about this.

One point I will make about bottled wines is that corks deteriorate
over time, when they are constantly saturated. I opened some wines
from the early '70s recently, whose corks simply fell apart as I used
my corkscrew. They had been great wines in their time, but I'm glad I
didn't bring them to a dinner party. Collectors of extremely rare and
expensive wines should have them re-corked every 20 years or so, and
the grand crus of Bordeaux offer this service on a periodic basis. If
you re-cork one of these heirlooms, it must be done by the chateau to
prevent fraud (and they do world tours, so you don't have to take your
wine to France).

OK, so let's summarize oxidation. Ethyl alcohol, if in low
concentrations like table wine (not in high proof spirits), will
combine with oxygen to form acetaldehyde.

Acetaldehyde is the smell of sherry. Obviously, Sherry, Madeira, Vin
Santo, tawny Port and old style Hungarian Tokaji are the deliberate
work of winemakers to incorporate an oxidated aroma and taste to their
wines. But the technique is finely controlled, and the most expert
examples are marvels of complexity: at this low level, the aromas have
an incredible nuttiness, like the hazel nut aromas in additives to
coffee.

But it's an acquired taste. Some people can't stand sherry, and I
don't blame them. I couldn't, for years. To subject clean fruit to
this punishment is an abomination to some, but in Jerez and Tuscany
it's an art. It all depends on one's tolerance for manipulated wine.
Now, I think a fino sherry or an aged Tokaji are fabulous.

Then acetaldehyde, in the presence of more oxygen, becomes acetic
acid, which is vinegar. No need to explain that. The process is
sometimes hastened by the accidental or careless presence of
acetobacter bacteria, but it will happen anyway. The term, "VA",
meaning volatile acidity, is the wine tasters' term for wines which
may not have gone all the way to vinegar, but have that piercing smell
and a burning sense in the aftertaste. Some people actually appreciate
minute traces of VA in a wine, because it may push the fruit forward
slightly in the nose, but I don't. Tolerance levels vary among each of
us.

It gets worse. The final stage gets ugly. Acetic acid molecules re-
combine with ethyl alcohol to form ethyl acetate, which is the odor of
nail polish remover. Wines like this have no redeeming social value.
However, if this ever happens in a bottled wine, you wouldn't want to
get near it; it's way too far gone.

So what are the benefits of oxidation? Oxygen doesn't only affect the
alcohol part of a wine, it affects the total package. Slow oxidation
(as in barrels) matures wine, makes it softer by cancelling out
tannins. Tannins in red wines are the natural anti-oxidants, and so a
careful introduction of oxygen is a good thing for youthful, robust
red wines. In fact, for tank aged cheaper reds, there is a process
called "micro-oxygenation" (developed in SW France around 1990, and
now used everywhere), which incorporates something like a fish bubbler
for aquariums. Oxygen is metered in slowly with a bubbler, and there's
a whole technology and formulae about how much oxygen to introduce.

Moving on to the OPPOSITE side of the coin, because reduction is the
literal opposite of oxidation: in the ABSENCE of oxygen, organic
matter decomposes anerobically, producing hydrogen sulfide. The smell
of the debris from a pond floor, or a swamp, is a perfect example.
Wine tasters refer to this as the "rotten egg smell", because a
decomposed egg yolk IS literally loaded with sulfur to produce H2S
(why else the yellow color? I can't say)

Has anyone read about the piles of decomposing algae on the French
beaches of Brittany this summer? They are deadly. Farmers are using
too much nitrogen fertilizer, and the runoff from rain is causing
enormous algae blooms off the beaches, and when the algae is washed
ashore, it forms piles which release enormous quantities of hydrogen
sulfide gas (H2S), which has actually killed several people.

The same takes place in the microcosm of a wine barrel. Winemakers are
becoming more "natural", and leaving the wine on the lees (the spent
yeast which forms a deposit in the bilge of a barrel), in the efforts
of acquiring more character. For chardonnay, this is de regeur, and
chardonnay producers often stir the lees on a regular basis, to
acquire the aromas of yeast autolysis (which promotes the breakdown of
the yeast, cracking open the yeast cells, yielding a wonderful,
toasty, bready aroma, which has little to do with reduction).

But if left unattended, this spent yeast often decomposes into
products which produce hydrogen sulfide. This is particularly true of
red wines, because aside from the yeast, there are various solids from
the grape skins which settle into the bottom of the barrel. Intensely
pigmented wine such as syrah is especially prone to reduction. I
hardly ever notice H2S in light red wines such as pinot noir.

So what do we have? H2S, hydrogen sulfide, the rotten egg smell,
which is not toxic in these trace amounts, but enough to be an
annoyance. Oxygen in the early stages may take care of the matter.
This is why classic French cellar technique is to "rack" the barrels,
that is, to transfer the wine out of the barrel into a tank or another
barrel, to get it off the lees. Bordelais tradition was once every
trimester during the first year (which also involves having the wine
exposed to air), and little or no racking during the second year,
because the wine by then was presumed "clean".

For persistent H2S problems in the winery, winemakers have used copper
sulfate (commonly used in sewage treatment), but any amount over 1 ppm
is detectable in sensory analysis and legally on shaky ground.

I used it only once, on a freshly fermented wine, theorizing that the
cupric sulfide product of chemical bonds would adhere to the suspended
yeast and settle out as a precipitate with the lees. My hunch was
confirmed on subsequent analysis!

If you are getting real, honest-to-goodness rotten egg smell in a
bottled red wine, it probably means the wine was unfiltered, and there
are probably deposits in the bottle which produced this in situ, not
necessarily at the winery.

But the issue and the definition raised here in the post I am replying
to, is what is reduction in most bottled wine? It's not H2S. It's
what the writer referred to as the "rubbery" smell. This is not H2S,
it's ethyl mercaptans. This, like ethyl acetate in oxidation, is when
the ethyl alcohol molecule bonds with H2S, and we have a whole
different animal here.

The statement by the previous writer that H2S smells like a burnt
match is incorrect. Now you're talking about SO2, sulfur dioxide.
Not the same thing at all. SO2 remains a critical part of winemaking
operations, and while it is an additive, it's also a natural by-
product of fermentation. SO2 is a whole other topic, except to say
that it is the best antioxidant in a winemaker's arsenal, which I
should have mentioned in a previous paragraph.

Present technology is looking for ways to eliminate SO2 additions,
although it has been used in wines for thousands of years.

Mercaptans, that rubbery smell, is nearly impossible to treat at the
winery. There is a chemical treatment involving use of a cyanide
compound, but the application has to be stoichiometrically perfect,
and I'm almost sure it's not even legal anymore. Best to dump the
wine, or sell it off in bulk, to disappear in a giant million gallon
blend.

Please, nobody get the impression that most modern wines are
manipulated this way! Wine technology has progressed a long way since
I was in the field, and more careful practices in the vineyard,
involving vine nutrition, etc., and in the cellar, are making wines
cleaner and cleaner. Wine remains essentially a natural product. I
merely wanted to present a discussion of redox from the winery point
of view.

However, I still taste $5 reds (imports) which I know were treated
with copper, and cheap white wines which I know were hit with SO2 to
knock down aldehydes, but these wines are probably not what this
newsgroup is drinking, anyway.

--Bob

Thanks for your comprehensive reply.

I particularly note that the reductive problem manifests in highly
pigmented
wines, hence not so often in a pinot noir for example.
My original question re reduction was because I'd had two recent wines
which exhibited characteristics which earlier research indicated maybe
due
to reduction. They were screwcapped, 4-5 years old, and both with
poor aromatics and dulled flavours when compared to previously
encounted examples from the same producers and brand. I didn't
get any sulphur/rubber aromas however. Maybe I'm not too sensitive
to them.
Both are NZ pinots, and both are darkly coloured pinot examples;
2005 Northrow Marlborough PN ( A Villa Maria, commerical wine for
the restaurant/hospitality trade, unlikely to be seen overseas, and
probably
for early consumption)
The other 2004 Ata Rangi, Martinborough, which is well known and highly
rated.
A second bottle of the Ata Rangi was the same, my first consumption of
an
Ata Rangi screwcapped vintage.
All which has me thinking about the long term storage of screwcapped
wine,
of which I have a large, and rising number. (hard to avoid if you live
in NZ!)
Of course I've had dozens of screwcapped bottles that have been fine.
Maybe like TCA infected corked bottles, I'm going to have to expect some
failures
from reductive wine screwcapped and aged. Sigh.........

PS all wine is stored lying down, in dark, temperature controlled
cabinets.

cheers greybeard

On Aug 30, 7:28*am, "Bi!!" <rvwr...@aol.com> wrote:
> On Aug 30, 7:39 am, Bobchai <barrel...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Aug 26, 5:52 pm, DaleW <Dwmi...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Aug 26, 7:18 pm, "greybeard" <nob...@nowhere.com> wrote:
>
> > > > "graham" <gste...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
>
> > > >news:moilm.154708$[email protected]..
> > > > || "DaleW" <Dwmi...@aol.com> wrote in message
>
> > > > |news:[email protected].com...
> > > > |
> > > > | >
> > > > | > I'm pretty sure that Dale meant that older barrels impart LESS
> > > > direct
> > > > | > oak flavors.
> > > > |
> > > > | yes, typing too fast. Typically new oak barrels can impart a lot of
> > > > | oak flavors, barrels used once less, twice even less, after that
> > > > | virtually none. Smaller barrels have more surface area compared to
> > > > | volume, so typically even new foudres or botti (often 1000 litersor
> > > > | much more) would give less oak than new barriques (225 liters).
> > > > |
> > > > | A good book is an excellent idea. The Johnson pocket is good, butyou
> > > > | could also try the Dummies series, The Wine Bible, or Andrea Immers,
> > > > | all of which devote pages to each of these subjects.
> > > > | -----------------------------------------------------------
> > > > |
> > > > | But do they explain the word "finesse", which one often sees in UK
> > > > reviews?
> > > > | Graham
> > > > |
> > > > |
>
> > > > I'd like to know about another, newish wine term that is gaining
> > > > currency:
> > > > what is a reductive wine?
> > > > how would I identify it in a wine?
>
> > > > cheers greybeard
>
> > > Graham,
> > > I don't think there is any effective way to define "finesse" (or sexy,
> > > elegant, lush, slutty, etc) or other common words in a purely wine
> > > sense. I'd tend to assume that the writer is telling me it's not a
> > > fruitbomb, it's not jammy, etc. It's not exact, but if I wanted
> > > exactitude I'd just read a sheet with TA, ph, dry extract, abv, rs, A
> > > lot of wine tasting notes is BS, but of what is left, the best (for my
> > > tastes) uses metaphor, simile, poetry, and jokes.
>
> > > Greybeard,
> > > reduction is the opposite of oxidation. It's the opposite of seeing
> > > too much oxygen. Dr Lipton can explain better, but in the worse cases
> > > of reduction you have mercaptans (in worse cases smells of rotten eggs
> > > or burning rubbers). In lesser cases you get less objectionable,
> > > especially sulphur (just lit matches) odors.
> > > By the way, these things are pretty personal as to perception, and for
> > > instance I am fairly insensitive to reductive aromas.
>
> > Greetings:
>
> > I have not posted to this group for several years, but I find this is
> > an interesting thread! I have been a winemaker in Napa/Sonoma for
> > many years, and currently I'm in the barrel business. I won't discuss
> > oak at this time, but I want to expound a bit on oxidation and
> > reduction.
>
> > Everything which has been explained is correct, except one comment
> > which needs clarification, and I'll get to that at the end.
>
> > There is a whole sub-study of wine chemistry (and of chemistry in
> > general) which is about "Redox" (oxidation vs. reduction). It is a
> > delicate balance. It is of supreme importance, because wine is a
> > fragile product and depending on cellar technique, wines could go off
> > in either direction during cellaring at the winery.
>
> > Bottled wines also evolve in the same way, but mostly in the direction
> > of oxidation as they age.
>
> > Oxidation obviously means what it says, We have all probably
> > experienced oxidized wines at one time or another, because of loose
> > corks or simply holding wines until they are past their peak. Proper
> > storage is the issue here, keeping the cork wet and forming a tight
> > seal by storing the bottle on its side. But temperature and sunlight
> > are are also agents which hasten oxidation, and we don't need to get
> > into that, because I think everyone knows about this.
>
> > One point I will make about bottled wines is that corks deteriorate
> > over time, when they are constantly saturated. I opened some wines
> > from the early '70s recently, whose corks simply fell apart as I used
> > my corkscrew. They had been great wines in their time, but I'm glad I
> > didn't bring them to a dinner party. Collectors of extremely rare and
> > expensive wines should have them re-corked every 20 years or so, and
> > the grand crus of Bordeaux offer this service on a periodic basis. If
> > you re-cork one of these heirlooms, it must be done by the chateau to
> > prevent fraud (and they do world tours, so you don't have to take your
> > wine to France).
>
> > OK, so let's summarize oxidation. Ethyl alcohol, if in low
> > concentrations like table wine (not in high proof spirits), will
> > combine with oxygen to form acetaldehyde.
>
> > Acetaldehyde is the smell of sherry. Obviously, Sherry, Madeira, Vin
> > Santo, tawny Port and old style Hungarian Tokaji are the deliberate
> > work of winemakers to incorporate an oxidated aroma and taste to their
> > wines. But the technique is finely controlled, and the most expert
> > examples are marvels of complexity: at this low level, the aromas have
> > an incredible nuttiness, like the hazel nut aromas in additives to
> > coffee.
>
> > But it's an acquired taste. Some people can't stand sherry, and I
> > don't blame them. I couldn't, for years. To subject clean fruit to
> > this punishment is an abomination to some, but in Jerez and Tuscany
> > it's an art. It all depends on one's tolerance for manipulated wine.
> > Now, I think a fino sherry or an aged Tokaji are fabulous.
>
> > Then acetaldehyde, in the presence of more oxygen, becomes acetic
> > acid, which is vinegar. No need to explain that. The process is
> > sometimes hastened by the accidental or careless presence of
> > acetobacter bacteria, but it will happen anyway. The term, "VA",
> > meaning volatile acidity, is the wine tasters' term for wines which
> > may not have gone all the way to vinegar, but have that piercing smell
> > and a burning sense in the aftertaste. Some people actually appreciate
> > minute traces of VA in a wine, because it may push the fruit forward
> > slightly in the nose, but I don't. Tolerance levels vary among each of
> > us.
>
> > It gets worse. The final stage gets ugly. Acetic acid molecules re-
> > combine with ethyl alcohol to form ethyl acetate, which is the odor of
> > nail polish remover. Wines like this have no redeeming social value.
> > However, if this ever happens in a bottled wine, you wouldn't want to
> > get near it; it's way too far gone.
>
> > So what are the benefits of oxidation? Oxygen doesn't only affect the
> > alcohol part of a wine, it affects the total package. Slow oxidation
> > (as in barrels) matures wine, makes it softer by cancelling out
> > tannins. Tannins in red wines are the natural anti-oxidants, and so a
> > careful introduction of oxygen is a good thing for youthful, robust
> > red wines. In fact, for tank aged cheaper reds, there is a process
> > called "micro-oxygenation" (developed in SW France around 1990, and
> > now used everywhere), which incorporates something like a fish bubbler
> > for aquariums. Oxygen is metered in slowly with a bubbler, and there's
> > a whole technology and formulae about how much oxygen to introduce.
>
> > Moving on to the OPPOSITE side of the coin, because reduction is the
> > literal opposite of oxidation: in the ABSENCE of oxygen, organic
> > matter decomposes anerobically, producing hydrogen sulfide. The smell
> > of the debris from a pond floor, or a swamp, is a perfect example.
> > Wine tasters refer to this as the "rotten egg smell", because a
> > decomposed egg yolk IS literally loaded with sulfur to produce H2S
> > (why else the yellow color? I can't say)
>
> > Has anyone read about the piles of decomposing algae on the French
> > beaches of Brittany this summer? They are deadly. Farmers are using
> > too much nitrogen fertilizer, and the runoff from rain is causing
> > enormous algae blooms off the beaches, and when the algae is washed
> > ashore, it forms piles which release enormous quantities of hydrogen
> > sulfide gas (H2S), which has actually killed several people.
>
> > The same takes place in the microcosm of a wine barrel. Winemakers are
> > becoming more "natural", and leaving the wine on the lees (the spent
> > yeast which forms a deposit in the bilge of a barrel), in the efforts
> > of acquiring more character. For chardonnay, this is de regeur, and
> > chardonnay producers often stir the lees on a regular basis, to
> > acquire the aromas of yeast autolysis (which promotes the breakdown of
> > the yeast, cracking open the yeast cells, yielding a wonderful,
> > toasty, bready aroma, which has little to do with reduction).
>
> > But if left unattended, this spent yeast often decomposes into
> > products which produce hydrogen sulfide. This is particularly true of
> > red wines, because aside from the yeast, there are various solids from
> > the grape skins which settle into the bottom of the barrel. Intensely
> > pigmented wine such as syrah is especially prone to reduction. I
> > hardly ever notice H2S in light red wines such as pinot noir.
>
> > So what do we have? H2S, hydrogen sulfide, the rotten egg smell,
> > which is not toxic in these trace amounts, but enough to be an
> > annoyance. Oxygen in the early stages may take care of the matter.
> > This is why classic French cellar technique is to "rack" the barrels,
> > that is, to transfer the wine out of the barrel into a tank or another
> > barrel, to get it off the lees. Bordelais tradition was once every
> > trimester during the first year (which also involves having the wine
> > exposed to air), and little or no racking during the second year,
> > because the wine by then was presumed "clean".
>
> > For persistent H2S problems in the winery, winemakers have used copper
> > sulfate (commonly used in sewage treatment), but any amount over 1 ppm
> > is detectable in sensory analysis and legally on shaky ground.
>
> > I used it only once, on a freshly fermented wine, theorizing that the
> > cupric sulfide product of chemical bonds would adhere to the suspended
> > yeast and settle out as a precipitate with the lees. My hunch was
> > confirmed on subsequent analysis!
>
> > If you are getting real, honest-to-goodness rotten egg smell in a
> > bottled red wine, it probably means the wine was unfiltered, and there
> > are probably deposits in the bottle which produced this in situ, not
> > necessarily at the winery.
>
> > But the issue and the definition raised here in the post I am replying
> > to, is what is reduction in most bottled wine? It's not H2S. It's
> > what the writer referred to as the "rubbery" smell. This is not H2S,
> > it's ethyl mercaptans. This, like ethyl acetate in oxidation, is when
> > the ethyl alcohol molecule bonds with H2S, and we have a whole
> > different animal here.
>
> > The statement by the previous writer that H2S smells like a burnt
> > match is incorrect. Now you're talking about SO2, sulfur dioxide.
> > Not the same thing at all. SO2 remains a critical part of winemaking
> > operations, and while it is an additive, it's also a natural by-
> > product of fermentation. SO2 is a whole other topic, except to say
> > that it is the best antioxidant in a winemaker's arsenal, which I
> > should have mentioned in a previous paragraph.
>
> > Present technology is looking for ways to eliminate SO2 additions,
> > although it has been used in wines for thousands of years.
>
> > Mercaptans, that rubbery smell, is nearly impossible to treat at the
> > winery. There is a chemical treatment involving use of a cyanide
> > compound, but the application has to be stoichiometrically perfect,
> > and I'm almost sure it's not even legal anymore. Best to dump the
> > wine, or sell it off in bulk, to disappear in a giant million gallon
> > blend.
>
> > Please, nobody get the impression that most modern wines are
> > manipulated this way! Wine technology has progressed a long way since
> > I was in the field, and more careful practices in the vineyard,
> > involving vine nutrition, etc., and in the cellar, are making wines
> > cleaner and cleaner. Wine remains essentially a natural product. I
> > merely wanted to present a discussion of redox from the winery point
> > of view.
>
> > However, I still taste $5 reds (imports) which I know were treated
> > with copper, and cheap white wines which I know were hit with SO2 to
> > knock down aldehydes, but these wines are probably not what this
> > newsgroup is drinking, anyway.
>
> > --Bob
>
> Bob,
> * *Thank you for your wonderfully informative post. *Welcome back!

Bi!!--

Thank you, I am glad to be back! I drifted away from this group some
years ago, because while I enjoy the commentary and discussion about
food and wine recommendations, I'm not really a collector. I have very
little to contribute about specific wines and vintages, although I
know most of the wines which are mentioned.

I taste so many wines each year that it all becomes a blur. I used to
keep a tasting notebook, but I finally threw up my hands: so many
wines, so little time! Furthermore, I live in a small Napa Valley
wine/tourist town, and so I don't have access to purchase many of the
wines which are discussed, but if you say, "Morey St. Denis from
Dujac", or "Cote Rotie from Guigal", or the latest garnacha or
albarino from Spain, or the hottest New Zealand sauvignon blanc from
Cloudy Bay, I'll know what you mean, because I have tasted prior
vintages from that estate or I am familiar with the wine type.

It's odd, living in wine country and not being able to buy the wines
which are discussed! But not really. It's the same in Bordeaux. You
can't buy a Burgundy in Bordeaux to save your life. The only out of
town wine you can sometimes find in Bordeaux is Sancerre, because it
matches so well with their Aquitaine seafood. And wines from the
Dordogne (Bergerac, Cahors) and Languedoc-Rousillon are big now,
because they are affordable.

We are insular. The local retailers focus on selling the local
product for the visitors who make pilgrimages here. I live within
walking distance of Dean & DeLuca, one of the best New York wine
merchants with a branch here, but all of the wines are Californian.

I met some of you in real life when you visited our wine country a
few years ago, and it was a rare pleasure.

--Bob

"Bobchai" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]..


Has anyone read about the piles of decomposing algae on the French
beaches of Brittany this summer? They are deadly. Farmers are using
too much nitrogen fertilizer, and the runoff from rain is causing
enormous algae blooms off the beaches, and when the algae is washed
ashore, it forms piles which release enormous quantities of hydrogen
sulfide gas (H2S), which has actually killed several people.
__________________________________________________ __

The death of one horse has been blamed on the decomposing seaweed but
AFAIAA, no humans have died.

Environmentalists (who are rarely good scientisits, IME, and who are fond of
hyperbole) have blamed it on intensive livestock operations in Brittany,
not overuse of fertilisers.

However, one has to be careful of media hype. 35 years ago, the
eutropification of Lake Michigan was blamed on farmers using too much
fertiliser. However, it was pointed out that the population along the
shores of the lake had increased greatly during the century and human sewage
was at least equally the cause - but that didn't get much coverage.
Graham

graham wrote:
> "Bobchai" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> Has anyone read about the piles of decomposing algae

You are off topic...

--
Mike Tommasi - Six Fours, France
email link http://www.tommasi.org/mymail

On Aug 30, 7:39*am, Bobchai <barrel...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The statement by the previous writer that H2S smells like a burnt
> match is incorrect. *Now you're talking about SO2, sulfur dioxide.
> Not the same thing at all. *SO2 remains a critical part of winemaking
> operations, and while it is an additive, it's also a natural by-
> product of fermentation. *SO2 is a whole other topic, except to say
> that it is the best antioxidant in a winemaker's arsenal, which I
> should have mentioned in a previous paragraph.
>

Bob (you're less formal than you used to be! )

Welcome back, and thanks for the informative post. I'm sorry if you
read my "just lit matches" comment as referring to H2S, I just meant
that people often refer to the smell of sulphur as reductive. As
noted, I find that far less troublesome, and even in fairly extreme
cases (Prum) it blows off in a few minutes (or you can try a penny). I
don't regard SO2 as a flaw.

) odors.

On Sep 1, 3:06*pm, DaleW <Dwmi...@aol.com> wrote:
> On Aug 30, 7:39*am, Bobchai <barrel...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > The statement by the previous writer that H2S smells like a burnt
> > match is incorrect. *Now you're talking about SO2, sulfur dioxide.
> > Not the same thing at all. *SO2 remains a critical part of winemaking
> > operations, and while it is an additive, it's also a natural by-
> > product of fermentation. *SO2 is a whole other topic, except to say
> > that it is the best antioxidant in a winemaker's arsenal, which I
> > should have mentioned in a previous paragraph.
>
> Bob (you're less formal than you used to be! )
>
> Welcome back, and thanks for the informative post. I'm sorry if you
> read my "just lit matches" comment as referring to H2S, I just meant
> that people often refer to the smell of sulphur *as reductive. As
> noted, I find that far less troublesome, and even in fairly extreme
> cases (Prum) it blows off in a few minutes (or you can try a penny). I
> don't regard SO2 as a flaw.
>
> ) odors.

PS I should note that I'm pretty sulphur insensitive, and others might
regard these wines as flawed (Pierre Rovani famously did while
reviewing German Riesling for WA).