Results 1 to 9 of 9

Thread: Finally a verifiable "aging" gimmick??

  1. #1
    Max Hauser Guest

    Default Finally a verifiable "aging" gimmick??

    After watching pseudotechnical hustles for decades (for wine and other
    things), and having verified that the date isn't the first of April, I
    recommend this to your reading. For once it doesn't seem a commercial
    hustle; article is in New Scientist, 17Dec08. (It does touch on other, less
    creditable gimmicks.) Report is of successful wine-industry use of
    electrochemical methods to remove harshness from young wine. (The writer's
    remark about all wines needing six months to be drinkable comes presumably
    from someone inexperienced with things like Austrian Prälatenwein and
    Beaujolais "Nouveau," though some might concede the latter example ;-).

    Below are compressed and original links to same article.

    http://tinyurl.com/3hawzf

    http://www.newscientist.com/article/...-cheap-wine-ta
    ste-like-a-fine-vintage.html?full=true

    Recalling our discussions forming Sec. 9 of the alt.food.wine FAQ file,
    maybe at least the brief list of references needs updating to include this
    very relevant data point.

    Cheers -- MH



  2. #2
    James Silverton Guest

    Default Re: Finally a verifiable "aging" gimmick??

    Max wrote on Sun, 21 Dec 2008 11:36:18 -0800:

    > Below are compressed and original links to same article.


    > http://tinyurl.com/3hawzf


    > http://www.newscientist.com/article/...-cheap-wine-ta
    > ste-like-a-fine-vintage.html?full=true


    > Recalling our discussions forming Sec. 9 of the alt.food.wine
    > FAQ file, maybe at least the brief list of references needs
    > updating to include this very relevant data point.


    Interesting but one statement seems a little dubious:

    "No matter how impatient or undiscriminating you may be, fresh wine is
    undrinkable and can have horrible after-effects. Expect an upset
    stomach, a raging thirst and the world's nastiest hangover. The youngest
    a wine can be drunk is six months."

    I just saw a large sign saying "Le Beaujolais Nouveau est arrivé" When
    is Beaujolais harvested? I am told that the wine is sent out with great
    publicity on the 3rd Thursday of November.
    --

    James Silverton
    Potomac, Maryland

    Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not


  3. #3
    Steve Slatcher Guest

    Default Re: Finally a verifiable "aging" gimmick??


    There was a lot of rubbish in the introduction to the paper about
    young wine, and aging in oak.

    But later on there were also a number of apparently solid experimental
    results.... namely that passing wine through an electrical field
    changes the chemical make-up of the wine (as determined by chemical
    analysis) and changes the taste (as determined blind by a panel of 12
    tasters). There's a long way to go to verify these results, and
    determine if/how the technique should be used, but it looks
    interesting to me.

    --
    Steve Slatcher
    http://pobox.com/~steve.slatcher

  4. #4
    DaleW Guest

    Default Re: Finally a verifiable "aging" gimmick??

    On Dec 21, 5:36�pm, Steve Slatcher <steve.slatc...@pobox.com> wrote:
    > There was a lot of rubbish in the introduction to the paper about
    > young wine, and aging in oak. �
    >
    > But later on there were also a number of apparently solid experimental
    > results.... namely that passing wine through an electrical field
    > changes the chemical make-up of the wine (as determined by chemical
    > analysis) and changes the taste (as determined blind by a panel of 12
    > tasters). �There's a long way to go to verify these results, and
    > determine if/how the technique should be used, but it looks
    > interesting to me.
    >
    > --
    > Steve Slatcherhttp://pobox.com/~steve.slatcher


    Article is poorly done. But research is possibly interesting. As far
    as I can tell, it seems the process is about bringing wine to market
    faster, NOT about mimicking cellaring.

  5. #5
    Max Hauser Guest

    Default Re: Finally a verifiable "aging" gimmick??


    "Steve Slatcher" in news:[email protected] :
    >
    > There was a lot of rubbish in the introduction to the paper
    > about young wine, and aging in oak.
    >
    > But later on there were also a number of apparently solid
    > experimental results.... passing wine through an electrical field
    > changes the chemical make-up of the wine (as determined
    > by chemical analysis) and changes the taste (as determined
    > blind by a panel of 12 tasters). ...it looks interesting to me.


    That's basically my take on it also. And as Dale (I think) pointed out,
    even if sound, the process's value may be purely commercial (like some other
    technical measures long available to winemakers).

    The writer came off naive about wine, making categorical statements many of
    us might have reason to dispute. (It makes me curious about the larger
    question: how does a writer report effectively about an unfamiliar complex
    subject, which many people do have knowledge of, without committing gaffes?
    A standard option is to have experts review it first, but besides that I
    think some writers approach these situations more skillfully than others.)



  6. #6
    Mark Lipton Guest

    Default Re: Finally a verifiable "aging" gimmick??

    Max Hauser wrote:

    > http://www.newscientist.com/article/...-cheap-wine-ta
    > ste-like-a-fine-vintage.html?full=true
    >
    > Recalling our discussions forming Sec. 9 of the alt.food.wine FAQ file,
    > maybe at least the brief list of references needs updating to include this
    > very relevant data point.


    Max,
    I read that article with interest (and skepticism) too. As Dale
    pointed out, the technique of passing young wine through an electric
    field of high potential is unlikely to be marketed (legitimately) to
    consumers any time soon. As I read that article, I kept asking myself
    what was happening to the wine. From the ill-informed comments of the
    NS author, I presume that tannins were being polymerized/precipitated,
    but the formation of esters was also mentioned. Interesting to see
    where this leads, I'd say.

    Mark Lipton

  7. #7
    cwdjrxyz Guest

    Default Re: Finally a verifiable "aging" gimmick??

    On Dec 21, 1:36*pm, "Max Hauser" <maxREM...@THIStdl.com> wrote:
    > After watching pseudotechnical hustles for decades (for wine and other
    > things), and having verified that the date isn't the first of April, I
    > recommend this to your reading. *For once it doesn't seem a commercial
    > hustle; article is in New Scientist, 17Dec08. *(It does touch on other,less
    > creditable gimmicks.) *Report is of successful wine-industry use of
    > electrochemical methods to remove harshness from young wine. *(The writer's
    > remark about all wines needing six months to be drinkable comes presumably
    > from someone inexperienced with things like Austrian Prälatenwein and
    > Beaujolais "Nouveau," though some might concede the latter example ;-).
    >
    > Below are compressed and original links to same article.
    >
    > http://tinyurl.com/3hawzf
    >
    > http://www.newscientist.com/article/...to-make-cheap-...
    > ste-like-a-fine-vintage.html?full=true
    >
    > Recalling our discussions forming Sec. 9 of the alt.food.wine FAQ file,
    > maybe at least the brief list of references needs updating to include this
    > very relevant data point.
    >
    > Cheers -- * MH


    The longer reference is to the New Scientist which is only a science
    news magazine. The peer review article referred to appears to be in a
    publisher house journal rather than in a scientific organization
    journal where most of the best academics publish. Many scientists, and
    especially many universities, hate many such journals since they often
    have very high charges for subscriptions and often high page charges
    for publication in them - in other words they often are out to make
    the largest profit possible. As for peer review in such journals, that
    is up to the publishing house and can vary greatly in quality. If
    anyone wants to read the "peer reviewed" article that gives the
    details, you must pay the publishing company over US$ 30 to do so. I
    wonder why the article was not submitted to Nature or Science, since
    it has general interest. For example these journals have had articles
    that concerned ancient wine, etc. For example, Science is published by
    the American Association for the Advancement of Science(AAAS) and not
    a publishing house. It is weekly. It is a cream skimmer and rejects
    many more articles than it publishes. Peer review is by a few experts
    in the field and statistics are checked. Even so, a little junk gets
    through, but not much.

    Even if an electric field produces changes as described and may make a
    young wine more drinkable, it may or may not improve the quality of
    the wine at the peak. Wine contains thousands of compounds and the
    distribution of the many micro components varies from wine to wine and
    will determine quality at peak. There is nothing at all new about
    making wine more drinkable at an early age. Heat and motion have been
    used for centuries to produce Madeira. However the eventual quality of
    the wine is greatly different from that of wines produced by usual
    methods. Fining harsh, young red wines with egg whites and many other
    things long has been used to make red wines more drinkable at an early
    age and to remove excess tannins that could be present even after the
    wines peak. Taken to the extreme, fining can result in wine that is
    smooth, but has little interesting character left The results about
    aging wine with an electric field need to be duplicated, subjected to
    strict peer review, and results need to be published in top journals
    of scientific organizations.Until that time I do not consider it very
    useful to speculate about it. As it is not being sold to the wine
    drinker, I see no need to consider it.

  8. #8
    DaleW Guest

    Default Re: Finally a verifiable "aging" gimmick??

    On Dec 22, 2:39�am, cwdjrxyz <spamtr...@cwdjr.info> wrote:
    > On Dec 21, 1:36�pm, "Max Hauser" <maxREM...@THIStdl.com> wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > > After watching pseudotechnical hustles for decades (for wine and other
    > > things), and having verified that the date isn't the first of April, I
    > > recommend this to your reading. �For once it doesn't seem a commercial
    > > hustle; article is in New Scientist, 17Dec08. �(It does touch on other, less
    > > creditable gimmicks.) �Report is of successful wine-industry use of
    > > electrochemical methods to remove harshness from young wine. �(The writer's
    > > remark about all wines needing six months to be drinkable comes presumably
    > > from someone inexperienced with things like Austrian Pr�latenwein and
    > > Beaujolais "Nouveau," though some might concede the latter example ;-).

    >
    > > Below are compressed and original links to same article.

    >
    > >http://tinyurl.com/3hawzf

    >
    > >http://www.newscientist.com/article/...to-make-cheap-...
    > > ste-like-a-fine-vintage.html?full=true

    >
    > > Recalling our discussions forming Sec. 9 of the alt.food.wine FAQ file,
    > > maybe at least the brief list of references needs updating to include this
    > > very relevant data point.

    >
    > > Cheers -- � MH

    >
    > The longer reference is to the New Scientist which is only a science
    > news magazine. The peer review article referred to appears to be in a
    > publisher house journal rather than in a scientific organization
    > journal where most of the best academics publish. Many scientists, and
    > especially many universities, hate many such journals since they often
    > have very high charges for subscriptions and often high page charges
    > for publication in them - in other words they often are out to make
    > the largest profit possible. As for peer review in such journals, that
    > is up to the publishing house and can vary greatly in quality. If
    > anyone wants to read the "peer reviewed" article that gives the
    > details, you must pay the publishing company over US$ 30 to do so. I
    > wonder why the article was not submitted to Nature or Science, since
    > it has general interest. For example these journals have had articles
    > that concerned ancient wine, etc. For example, Science is published by
    > the American Association for the Advancement of Science(AAAS) and not
    > a publishing house. It is weekly. It is a cream skimmer and rejects
    > many more articles than it publishes. Peer review is by a few experts
    > in the field and statistics are checked. Even so, a little junk gets
    > through, but not much.
    >
    > Even if an electric field produces changes as described and may make a
    > young wine more drinkable, it may or may not improve the quality of
    > the wine at the peak. Wine contains thousands of compounds and the
    > distribution of the many micro components varies from wine to wine and
    > will �determine quality at peak. There is nothing at all new about
    > making wine more drinkable at an early age. Heat and motion have been
    > used for centuries to produce Madeira. However the eventual quality of
    > the wine is greatly different from that of wines produced by usual
    > methods. Fining harsh, young red wines with egg whites and many other
    > things long has been used to make red wines more drinkable at an early
    > age and to remove excess tannins that could be present even after the
    > wines peak. Taken to the extreme, fining can result in wine that is
    > smooth, but has little interesting character left The results about
    > aging wine with an electric field need to be duplicated, subjected to
    > strict peer review, and results need to be published in top journals
    > of scientific organizations.Until that time I do not consider it very
    > useful to speculate about it. As it is not being sold to the wine
    > drinker, I see no need to consider it.- Hide quoted text -
    >
    > - Show quoted text -


    I liked Joe Moryl's comment on this on another forum:
    " It always is amusing to me how a process like the one described,
    which would be very non-specific in its action on individual
    molecules, winds up modifying exactly those molecules with improve the
    sensory qualities!"

  9. #9
    Max Hauser Guest

    Default Re: Finally a verifiable "aging" gimmick??

    "cwdjrxyz" wrote:

    > ... The peer review article referred to appears to be in
    > a publisher house journal rather than in a scientific
    > organization journal ... Many scientists, and especially
    > many universities, hate many such journals ...


    Tell me about it ... :-[

    However, even if not Nature or Science, the media where these developments
    appear depart from the familiar yuppie wine-accessory catalogs or other
    purely commercial descriptions of the very latest gizmo to perform miracles,
    for $229 plus shipping.

    > Even if an electric field produces changes as described
    > and may make a young wine more drinkable, it may or
    > may not improve the quality of the wine at the peak.
    > ... There is nothing at all new about making wine more
    > drinkable at an early age. ... Fining harsh, young red wines
    > ... long has been used to make red wines more drinkable
    > ... Taken to the extreme, fining can result in wine that is
    > smooth, but has little interesting character left.


    Excellent point. You remind me of Paul Draper there. From January 1993:

    D: We were not on the "cutting edge" as defined by the
    D: University. We deliberately looked to the techniques
    D: of pre-Prohibition California, techniques virtually identical
    D: to those used for centuries to make the finest European
    D: wines. We were not impressed with the simple, clean,
    D: fruity wines produced by "modern techniques."



Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32