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Thread: Whole Wheat and/or Bagels (I remain confused)

  1. #1
    Robert of St Louis Guest

    Default Whole Wheat and/or Bagels (I remain confused)

    I keep reading that I can have whole wheat bread and bagels. I hear so
    damned much about bread exchanges. But what if they are these 2 good
    choices?

  2. #2
    Evelyn Guest

    Default Re: Whole Wheat and/or Bagels (I remain confused)

    "Robert of St Louis" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    >I keep reading that I can have whole wheat bread and bagels. I hear so
    > damned much about bread exchanges. But what if they are these 2 good
    > choices?


    Hi Robert,

    That is because you are reading books about the wrong kind of diabetes, and
    stuff that is recommended by the ADA (American Diabetes Association).
    Follow their guidelines only if you want to have complications, lose a leg,
    failed kidneys....etc.

    One kind of diabetes is where the body no longer makes its own insulin
    anymore. That is called Type 1 .... also Juvenile diabetes. The other
    kind of diabetes, which you, and I, and so many others who are diagnosed
    later on in life get is type 2. Type two is a complicated bunch of
    symptoms that are characterized sometimes as Syndrome X. High cholesterol,
    high blood pressure and high blood glucose.

    With type two diabetes there are problems where the person has insulin
    production, and has glucose in their blood, but for some reason as yet
    unknown, they don't recognize one another. Some medications improve the
    ability of the cells to be able to use the sugars in ones blood and some
    stimulate the production of additional insulin.

    All of this is a vast oversimplification of a complex disease. You can
    manage it, but not cure it. If one chooses to ignore it, complications
    will surely follow.

    Some diabetics can have some bread products. You can only know for sure by
    testing frequently. The only way to control your blood glucose is to count
    carbohydrates and know what allowance is OK for you. Some try to stay
    under 30 grams. Some can handle 100 per day. Your meter will be your
    guide to see what will send your blood glucose soaring, and what will not.

    There are lots of good books and lots of good advice out there. The best
    free advice will come to you from alt.support.diabetes. Here we mainly
    discuss recipes and food issues.

    This is the BEST book to get that I know of..... THE FIRST YEAR TYPE 2
    DIABETES by
    Gretchen Becker. It contains lots of helpful information and is a source
    you can return to again and again. You'll get lots more info from this
    book than from most doctors who just don't have the time or patience to
    explain the condition. Ms Becker has diabetes and has been thru all the
    feelings that the diagosis brings to you. Plus, she is very proactive
    about knowing all she can and taking charge of her life and condition.

    --

    Evelyn

    The fool thinks he has won a battle when he bullies with harsh speech, but
    knowing how to be forbearing alone makes one victorious.
    Samyutta Nikaya I, 163


  3. #3
    Julie Bove Guest

    Default Re: Whole Wheat and/or Bagels (I remain confused)


    "Robert of St Louis" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    >I keep reading that I can have whole wheat bread and bagels. I hear so
    > damned much about bread exchanges. But what if they are these 2 good
    > choices?


    Bagels are tricky. Something about the way they are processed usually makes
    for high blood sugar. As for the bread, you may or may not be able to.
    Only way to know is to eat it and test at two hours later.



  4. #4
    W. Baker Guest

    Default Re: Whole Wheat and/or Bagels (I remain confused)

    Julie Bove <[email protected]> wrote:

    : "Robert of St Louis" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    : news:[email protected]...
    : >I keep reading that I can have whole wheat bread and bagels. I hear so
    : > damned much about bread exchanges. But what if they are these 2 good
    : > choices?

    : Bagels are tricky. Something about the way they are processed usually makes
    : for high blood sugar. As for the bread, you may or may not be able to.
    : Only way to know is to eat it and test at two hours later.

    Most of the bagels sold today at bagel stores are so large that they are
    the equivalent of about 4 slices of bread-even whole wheat one. that is
    about 60 grams of carb, more than most of us can eat in one meal, and is
    often the total we eat for the ewhole day.

    Wendy

  5. #5
    Janet Wilder Guest

    Default Re: Whole Wheat and/or Bagels (I remain confused)

    Robert of St Louis wrote:
    > I keep reading that I can have whole wheat bread and bagels. I hear so
    > damned much about bread exchanges. But what if they are these 2 good
    > choices?


    Robert,

    Read the labels! Carbohydrates should be treated the same until you are
    familiar enough with how your body processes certain ones.

    Many people will subtract the amount of fiber grams from the
    carbohydrate grams for "net carbs" but the generally recommended formula
    is to only subtract 5 grams or more of fiber per serving for net carbs.

    Whole wheat is still a carb. If you read the label on the bread or
    bagels the carbohydrate count is not much different between regular and
    "whole wheat" per serving.

    If you ask me, this entire "whole grain" business is just more marketing
    BS because someone said refined carbs weren't good for people. While
    non-diabetics might benefit from the bit of extra fiber, it really
    doesn't make much difference to the average type 2 diabetic.

    You need to use your meter to determine how many grams of carbohydrates
    your medication will permit your body to tolerate. Your medical people
    should have set you up with a series of classes for nutrition and and
    medical management. You need to learn to read labels. You need to learn
    to use your meter effectively and that means a finger stick before
    eating to see what your glucose level is. You will need to keep a record
    of the amount (and type) of carbohydrates you are going to eat. After
    meals, take a reading one hour, two hours and three hours. This diary
    will help you learn which types of carbs you tolerate best and how much
    of them you can tolerate.

    Carbohydrates are not just starches and sugars. Dairy products like
    milk, cottage cheese, yogurt and ice cream are carbohydrates. If you are
    going to have a bowl of dry cereal, you also have to count the carbs in
    the milk. Fruits are carbohydrates. A small apple is 15g. A banana is
    30g. Some veggies like tomato and carrots can add up. Other veggies like
    corn and winter squashes are counted more like a starch than a veggie.

    Too many physicians take a blood test, see elevated glucose and
    prescribe a bottle of pills. That is a horrible way to treat a diabetic,
    but, unfortunately, that's what happens.

    Until you learn to eat what is proper for your body, your doctor will
    probably continue to up your meds. The oral medications have their own
    set of side effects so you want to keep the dosage as low as possible.
    This might mean that you cut out all starches and only get your
    carbohydrates from small servings of fruit and vegetables.

    Starch is your enemy. Sugar and starch are identical to your body. One
    slice of supermarket white bread and a tablespoon of sugar are exactly
    the same to your body. Do not fall for the "sugar-free" trap. Things
    like "sugar-free" pudding are filled with carbohydrates. First from the
    primary ingredient, corn starch and next from the milk. Taking out the
    sugar and putting in artificial sweetener doesn't make it any healthier
    for a diabetic.

    Don't let anyone scare you away from fat, either. Try to eat good fats,
    like olive oil, nuts and avocado instead of saturated fats. Many
    fat-free foods are higher in carbohydrates than the full-fat versions or
    the "lite" versions.

    The thing that is very, very important for you to learn is portion
    control. Get a little paperback carbohydrate counting book (WalMart
    carries them) and a small digital food scale. Get a set of dry measuring
    cups and a measuring cup for liquids. This will teach you what a serving
    of carbs (15g) will look like. After a short while you will be able to
    eye-ball your servings.

    The other suggestions made here are valuable. Diabetes is not the kind
    of condition that you just take a pill for. Controlling it means a
    change in your entire life-style.

    If I have scared you, then I've done a good job. Diabetes is a scary
    diagnosis. If you don't make the necessary changes in your life to
    control it, the consequences are very, very scary indeed.

    I'll recap for you:

    1) get set up with a diabetes education course.

    2) Make a chart with a food diary and lay in a big supply of test
    strips. (I know that they are expensive, but how much is your life and
    your health worth?)

    3) Learn to read labels and watch your carbohydrate intake like a hawk.
    They did tell you that meter readings of between 90 - 110 are what you
    should be setting your goals for?

    4) Get a food scale, a carb-counter book and measuring cups.

    5) Don't expect the people here or at any other newsgroup to create
    miracles for you. It's your condition and you have to work really hard
    to control it.

    --
    Janet Wilder
    Way-the-heck-south Texas
    Spelling doesn't count. Cooking does.

  6. #6
    Alan S Guest

    Default Re: Whole Wheat and/or Bagels (I remain confused)

    On Fri, 29 May 2009 04:12:26 -0700 (PDT), Robert of St Louis
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >I keep reading that I can have whole wheat bread and bagels. I hear so
    >damned much about bread exchanges. But what if they are these 2 good
    >choices?


    You're reading the wrong sources. The best source to read to
    answer your questions is your own meter.

    But, until you do, this is something I wrote for new type
    2s.

    What to Eat at First
    http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com/20...our-meter.html

    Every so often a newly diagnosed person arrives on the
    various forums I read who has no meter and is unlikely to
    get one for a period. Of course, I suggest they don't delay
    in correcting that, but that doesn't help in the short term.
    So this page is some suggestions for people in that
    position. Not advice for a permanent menu, but as a
    temporary measure until a meter is available and blood
    glucose testing can be started.

    These are broad guidelines that should help minimise
    post-meal blood glucose spikes without jeopardising overall
    nutrition. Note that these are just my opinion, I'm a
    diabetic, not a doctor. If you are on insulin you should
    discuss them with your doctor - but if you are on insulin
    you should also have a meter.

    Minimise:

    Anything made in a bakery.
    Pasta.
    Rice.
    All wheat products.
    All corn products.
    All cereals and other processed grains.
    Starches - especially root vegetables.
    All sugared drinks - sodas, sport drinks, milk.
    All juices.
    All fast foods.
    And ignore colour, fibre content, or advertising hype about
    wholegrain or low-GI.

    Be wary of:

    Fruits, good in small portions, possibly harmful in large
    portions.

    Maximise

    All vegetables, apart from root vegetables.

    Use in appropriate portions:

    Fish
    Meats (trimmed well of fat)
    Eggs
    Beans
    Nuts
    Avocado

    Those lists are not exhaustive but I think you'll pick up
    the trends.

    Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
    --
    d&e, metformin 2000 mg
    Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.
    http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com (Breakfast On The Run)
    http://loraltravel.blogspot.com (Jerash, an Ancient City in Jordan)

  7. #7
    Tiger Lily Guest

    Default Re: Whole Wheat and/or Bagels (I remain confused)

    W. Baker wrote:
    > Julie Bove <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > : "Robert of St Louis" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > : news:[email protected]...
    > : >I keep reading that I can have whole wheat bread and bagels. I hear so
    > : > damned much about bread exchanges. But what if they are these 2 good
    > : > choices?
    >
    > : Bagels are tricky. Something about the way they are processed usually makes
    > : for high blood sugar. As for the bread, you may or may not be able to.
    > : Only way to know is to eat it and test at two hours later.
    >
    > Most of the bagels sold today at bagel stores are so large that they are
    > the equivalent of about 4 slices of bread-even whole wheat one. that is
    > about 60 grams of carb, more than most of us can eat in one meal, and is
    > often the total we eat for the ewhole day.
    >
    > Wendy


    gotta agree, Wendy

    my bread is 12 grams of carbs and a bagel is 60 grams

    12 X 5 = 60

    NO WAY can i have 5 slices of bread in one sitting, as a bagel would be

    oh......... lox, onion, cream cheese
    very very thinly slice a couple of bits of onions (the middle part will
    have to be cut in 1/2)
    place slices of lox, overlapping them, into a 'line' on a plate
    place blobs of cream cheese on lox, using as much cream cheese as you like
    place the THIN layers of onion on top........ now, roll up the lot,
    making sure the lox is the outside
    eat and enjoy! (i just did)

  8. #8
    Evelyn Guest

    Default Re: Whole Wheat and/or Bagels (I remain confused)

    "Tiger Lily" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]..
    > W. Baker wrote:
    >> Julie Bove <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>
    >> : "Robert of St Louis" <[email protected]> wrote in message :
    >> news:[email protected]...
    >> : >I keep reading that I can have whole wheat bread and bagels. I hear so
    >> : > damned much about bread exchanges. But what if they are these 2 good
    >> : > choices?
    >>
    >> : Bagels are tricky. Something about the way they are processed usually
    >> makes : for high blood sugar. As for the bread, you may or may not be
    >> able to. : Only way to know is to eat it and test at two hours later.
    >> Most of the bagels sold today at bagel stores are so large that they are
    >> the equivalent of about 4 slices of bread-even whole wheat one. that is
    >> about 60 grams of carb, more than most of us can eat in one meal, and is
    >> often the total we eat for the ewhole day. Wendy

    >
    > gotta agree, Wendy
    >
    > my bread is 12 grams of carbs and a bagel is 60 grams
    >
    > 12 X 5 = 60
    >
    > NO WAY can i have 5 slices of bread in one sitting, as a bagel would be
    >
    > oh......... lox, onion, cream cheese
    > very very thinly slice a couple of bits of onions (the middle part will
    > have to be cut in 1/2)
    > place slices of lox, overlapping them, into a 'line' on a plate
    > place blobs of cream cheese on lox, using as much cream cheese as you like
    > place the THIN layers of onion on top........ now, roll up the lot, making
    > sure the lox is the outside
    > eat and enjoy! (i just did)




    Yummy..... a great favorite of mine!

    --

    Evelyn

    The fool thinks he has won a battle when he bullies with harsh speech, but
    knowing how to be forbearing alone makes one victorious.
    Samyutta Nikaya I, 163


  9. #9
    W. Baker Guest

    Default Re: Whole Wheat and/or Bagels (I remain confused)

    Tiger Lily <[email protected]> wrote:
    : W. Baker wrote:
    : > Julie Bove <[email protected]> wrote:
    : >
    : > : "Robert of St Louis" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    : > : news:[email protected]...
    : > : >I keep reading that I can have whole wheat bread and bagels. I hear so
    : > : > damned much about bread exchanges. But what if they are these 2 good
    : > : > choices?
    : >
    : > : Bagels are tricky. Something about the way they are processed usually makes
    : > : for high blood sugar. As for the bread, you may or may not be able to.
    : > : Only way to know is to eat it and test at two hours later.
    : >
    : > Most of the bagels sold today at bagel stores are so large that they are
    : > the equivalent of about 4 slices of bread-even whole wheat one. that is
    : > about 60 grams of carb, more than most of us can eat in one meal, and is
    : > often the total we eat for the ewhole day.
    : >
    : > Wendy

    : gotta agree, Wendy

    : my bread is 12 grams of carbs and a bagel is 60 grams

    : 12 X 5 = 60

    : NO WAY can i have 5 slices of bread in one sitting, as a bagel would be

    : oh......... lox, onion, cream cheese
    : very very thinly slice a couple of bits of onions (the middle part will
    : have to be cut in 1/2)
    : place slices of lox, overlapping them, into a 'line' on a plate
    : place blobs of cream cheese on lox, using as much cream cheese as you like
    : place the THIN layers of onion on top........ now, roll up the lot,
    : making sure the lox is the outside
    : eat and enjoy! (i just did)

    I eat lox and cream cheese on Wasa or Ryevita crackers and it is delish.

    Wendy

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