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Thread: How many Carohydrates?

  1. #1
    Wayne Boatwright Guest

    Default How many Carohydrates?

    What is the recommended limit of carbohydrates per meal and/or per day
    for a Type II diabetic?

    TIA

    --

    ~~ If there's a nit to pick, some nitwit will pick it. ~~

    ~~ A mind is a terrible thing to lose. ~~

    ************************************************** ********

    Wayne Boatwright


  2. #2
    Susan Guest

    Default Re: How many Carohydrates?

    x-no-archive: yes

    On 8/1/2010 6:17 PM, Wayne Boatwright wrote:
    > What is the recommended limit of carbohydrates per meal and/or per day
    > for a Type II diabetic?
    >


    Recommended by whom?

    The amounts recommended by authorities are extremely damaging and
    promote progressive disease.

    There is no single amount recommended by diabetics to one another,
    because responses to meals is so individual.

    Check this web site: www.phlaunt.com/diabetes and use this method to
    find your own best carb level:

    http://alt-support-diabetes.org/new.php

    Susan

  3. #3
    Ozgirl Guest

    Default Re: How many Carohydrates?

    Hi Wayne, the amount vary according to the amount of insulin resistance a
    person has. Highly insulin resistant people - like a lot of type 2's are at
    diagnosis - will need less carbs than say someone like me who has lost a lot
    of weight and reduced insulin resistance. Use you meter to determine the
    amount and types of carbs you have but pay attention to getting all the
    nutrients you need by eating a wide daily variety of vegetables,
    particularly colours like dark greens, reds, oranges and yellows. Check the
    Glycemic Index of foods and try to eat those at the lower end of the scale.

    "Wayne Boatwright" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected] 5.247...
    > What is the recommended limit of carbohydrates per meal and/or per day
    > for a Type II diabetic?
    >
    > TIA
    >
    > --
    >
    > ~~ If there's a nit to pick, some nitwit will pick it. ~~
    >
    > ~~ A mind is a terrible thing to lose. ~~
    >
    > ************************************************** ********
    >
    > Wayne Boatwright
    >


  4. #4
    Alan S Guest

    Default Re: How many Carohydrates?

    On Sun, 01 Aug 2010 22:17:41 GMT, Wayne Boatwright
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >What is the recommended limit of carbohydrates per meal and/or per day
    >for a Type II diabetic?
    >
    >TIA


    Sorry, that's a "how long is a piece of string" question for a
    diabetic.

    So much depends on the diabetic's personal situation and control of
    their diabetes.

    The best suggestion I can offer is to ask that diabetic's meter. I
    describe how to do that here:
    http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com/20...ew-adjust.html

    Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
    d & e; metformin 1500mg
    --
    Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.
    http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com (I'm Type 2! What Should I Eat?)
    http://loraltravel.blogspot.com (Buenos Aires, Argentina)

  5. #5
    Wayne Boatwright Guest

    Default Re: How many Carohydrates?

    On Sun 01 Aug 2010 03:39:24p, Susan told us...

    > x-no-archive: yes
    >
    > On 8/1/2010 6:17 PM, Wayne Boatwright wrote:
    >> What is the recommended limit of carbohydrates per meal and/or
    >> per day for a Type II diabetic?
    >>

    >
    > Recommended by whom?
    >
    > The amounts recommended by authorities are extremely damaging and
    > promote progressive disease.
    >
    > There is no single amount recommended by diabetics to one another,
    > because responses to meals is so individual.
    >
    > Check this web site: www.phlaunt.com/diabetes and use this method
    > to find your own best carb level:
    >
    > http://alt-support-diabetes.org/new.php
    >
    > Susan
    >


    Thanks for the references, Susan.

    --

    ~~ If there's a nit to pick, some nitwit will pick it. ~~

    ~~ A mind is a terrible thing to lose. ~~

    ************************************************** ********

    Wayne Boatwright


  6. #6
    Wayne Boatwright Guest

    Default Re: How many Carohydrates?

    Thanks fdor the very good tips!


    On Sun 01 Aug 2010 03:46:25p, Ozgirl told us...

    > Hi Wayne, the amount vary according to the amount of insulin
    > resistance a person has. Highly insulin resistant people - like a
    > lot of type 2's are at diagnosis - will need less carbs than say
    > someone like me who has lost a lot of weight and reduced insulin
    > resistance. Use you meter to determine the amount and types of
    > carbs you have but pay attention to getting all the nutrients you
    > need by eating a wide daily variety of vegetables, particularly
    > colours like dark greens, reds, oranges and yellows. Check the
    > Glycemic Index of foods and try to eat those at the lower end of
    > the scale.
    >
    > "Wayne Boatwright" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected] 5.247...
    >> What is the recommended limit of carbohydrates per meal and/or
    >> per day for a Type II diabetic?
    >>
    >> TIA
    >>
    >> --
    >>
    >> ~~ If there's a nit to pick, some nitwit will pick it. ~~
    >>
    >> ~~ A mind is a terrible thing to lose. ~~
    >>
    >> ************************************************** ********
    >>
    >> Wayne Boatwright
    >>

    >




    --

    ~~ If there's a nit to pick, some nitwit will pick it. ~~

    ~~ A mind is a terrible thing to lose. ~~

    ************************************************** ********

    Wayne Boatwright


  7. #7
    Janet Wilder Guest

    Default Re: How many Carohydrates?

    Wayne Boatwright wrote:
    > What is the recommended limit of carbohydrates per meal and/or per day
    > for a Type II diabetic?
    >
    > TIA
    >


    You got some good answers, Wayne. Knowing a little about how you
    generally eat from your rfc postings, try cutting down to between 30 and
    45 grams per meal. That will be a lot less than you are eating now.

    I would strongly suggest you find a diabetes education class. Find one
    that teaches carb counting. If anything it will help you better
    understanding of the disease and how your body works.

    BTW, though there is good advice here, but there is also highly
    individualized advice, which includes web sites that support the
    poster's personal methods of treating their own disease. This may work
    just fine for the poster, but may not be what you need for Wayne (and
    partner?) I'm just giving you a heads up.

    --
    Janet Wilder
    Way-the-heck-south Texas
    Spelling doesn't count. Cooking does.

  8. #8
    Janet Guest

    Default Re: How many Carohydrates?



    "Janet Wilder" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:4c570880$0$17888$[email protected]

    <<I would strongly suggest you find a diabetes education class. Find one
    that teaches carb counting. If anything it will help you better
    understanding of the disease and how your body works.

    BTW, though there is good advice here, but there is also highly
    individualized advice, which includes web sites that support the
    poster's personal methods of treating their own disease. This may work
    just fine for the poster, but may not be what you need for Wayne (and
    partner?) I'm just giving you a heads up.>>

    Wayne, speaking as a newly-diagnosed T2, I think that you will find that
    there is a basic divide between people with diabetes who decided that they
    are going to take matters into their own hands and work to control their
    diabetes with diet and exercise and medication if need be, and diabetes
    "educators" of various types who, although well-intentioned, a) genuinely
    believe that the food pyramid is healthy for everyone, and b) do not believe
    that anyone will actually abide by a low carb eating style, and c) accept
    that a long slow slide into diabetic complications is inevitable. All with
    the best of intentions, mind you.

    I would suggest reading Gretchen Becker's book "Type 2 Diabetes: The First
    Year." Check out David Mendosa's web site. Look around. You will find
    nutcases and people with personal grudges who spend most of their time
    complaining about mysterious cliques and people riding hobbyhorses, but you
    will find rational, empowered people too.





  9. #9
    Susan Guest

    Default Re: How many Carohydrates?

    On 8/2/2010 3:26 PM, Janet wrote:

    > Wayne, speaking as a newly-diagnosed T2, I think that you will find that
    > there is a basic divide between people with diabetes who decided that they
    > are going to take matters into their own hands and work to control their
    > diabetes with diet and exercise and medication if need be, and diabetes
    > "educators" of various types who, although well-intentioned, a) genuinely
    > believe that the food pyramid is healthy for everyone, and b) do not believe
    > that anyone will actually abide by a low carb eating style, and c) accept
    > that a long slow slide into diabetic complications is inevitable. All with
    > the best of intentions, mind you.
    >
    > I would suggest reading Gretchen Becker's book "Type 2 Diabetes: The First
    > Year." Check out David Mendosa's web site. Look around. You will find
    > nutcases and people with personal grudges who spend most of their time
    > complaining about mysterious cliques and people riding hobbyhorses, but you
    > will find rational, empowered people too.


    I so hope we won't start having the same crud going on here that goes on
    in ASD.

    Susan

  10. #10
    Orlando Enrique Fiol Guest

    Default Re: How many Carohydrates?

    Susan <[email protected]> wrote:
    >I so hope we won't start having the same crud going on here that goes on
    >in ASD.


    If you'll renounce your public adherence of low-carb dogma to the exclusion of
    everything else, things will proceed smoothly.

    Orlando

  11. #11
    Alan S Guest

    Default Re: How many Carohydrates?

    On Mon, 2 Aug 2010 19:13:51 -0400, Orlando Enrique Fiol
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >Susan <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>I so hope we won't start having the same crud going on here that goes on
    >>in ASD.

    >
    >If you'll renounce your public adherence of low-carb dogma to the exclusion of
    >everything else, things will proceed smoothly.
    >
    >Orlando


    Orlando, do us all a favour please.

    Just a polite request for a courtesy.

    If you want to enter the hurly-burly of the diabetes diet wars, it
    would be greatly appreciated if you would join us over on a.s.d to
    engage in battle. You will find allies and opponents and many between
    the opposing camps over there.

    There has been a tacit agreement over the years that we keep the diet
    wars off this group. Of course, that is unenforceable and occasionally
    the battles spill over from other groups to here. There will always be
    occasional comments or surprise at the suitability or otherwise of
    some recipes and foods for diabetics, but on the whole avoidance of
    the diet wars has been a policy that the majority have respected for
    quite a while.

    Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
    d & e; metformin 1500mg
    --
    Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.
    http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com (I'm Type 2! What Should I Eat?)
    http://loraltravel.blogspot.com (Buenos Aires, Argentina)

  12. #12
    Orlando Enrique Fiol Guest

    Default Re: How many Carbohydrates?

    Alan S <[email protected]> wrote:
    >Orlando, do us all a favour please.
    >Just a polite request for a courtesy.
    >If you want to enter the hurly-burly of the diabetes diet wars, it
    >would be greatly appreciated if you would join us over on a.s.d to
    >engage in battle. You will find allies and opponents and many between
    >the opposing camps over there.


    I have already set up an encampment there and am ready to rumble.

    >There has been a tacit agreement over the years that we keep the diet
    >wars off this group. Of course, that is unenforceable and occasionally
    >the battles spill over from other groups to here. There will always be
    >occasional comments or surprise at the suitability or otherwise of
    >some recipes and foods for diabetics, but on the whole avoidance of
    >the diet wars has been a policy that the majority have respected for
    >quite a while.


    I am happy to respect this policy and have not come down on either side.
    Rather, I've advocated individual choice rather than an exclusionist definition
    of which type of diabetic is worthy of posting here.

    Orlando

  13. #13
    Wayne Boatwright Guest

    Default Re: How many Carohydrates?

    On Mon 02 Aug 2010 11:05:40a, Janet Wilder told us...

    > Wayne Boatwright wrote:
    >> What is the recommended limit of carbohydrates per meal and/or
    >> per day for a Type II diabetic?
    >>
    >> TIA
    >>

    >
    > You got some good answers, Wayne. Knowing a little about how you
    > generally eat from your rfc postings, try cutting down to between
    > 30 and 45 grams per meal. That will be a lot less than you are
    > eating now.


    Thanks, Janet. Actually, I wasn't totally clear about my question,
    as it relates more to my partner, David's diabetic management than to
    mine. My A1C averages 5.7 and my BG meter readings are generally
    within normal range. OTOH, David's is not. He is very inflexible
    and resistant to change, and I'm trying to convince him that he make
    a strong effort to control his eating.

    > I would strongly suggest you find a diabetes education class. Find
    > one that teaches carb counting. If anything it will help you
    > better understanding of the disease and how your body works.


    Over the past 5-6 years we have been through two such classes. I
    learned a lot. David seems to have retained nothing.

    As of last night I finally got him to agree to count the carbs in the
    foods he eats and gave him some numbers to stay within as staring
    point, as well as taking meter readings at appropriate times.

    The problem is his limited diet. He will only eat peas, carrots,
    corn, and potatoes, as far as vegetables are concerned. Fruits are
    even worse, consisting only of applesauce or canned peaches. His
    snacks are mostly high-carb, and of course there are the desserts.
    Meats are not an issue.

    Having said that, he had a very good day today. He was careful and
    took readings an hour before meals, and an hour and two hours after
    meals. All readings were good. I just don'tknow how long this will
    last.

    > BTW, though there is good advice here, but there is also highly
    > individualized advice, which includes web sites that support the
    > poster's personal methods of treating their own disease. This may
    > work just fine for the poster, but may not be what you need for
    > Wayne (and partner?) I'm just giving you a heads up.


    Fortunately, I do all the cooking and have some level of control as
    long as he doesn't cheat with snacks I don't know about.

    --

    ~~ If there's a nit to pick, some nitwit will pick it. ~~

    ~~ A mind is a terrible thing to lose. ~~

    ************************************************** ********

    Wayne Boatwright


  14. #14
    Wayne Boatwright Guest

    Default Re: How many Carohydrates?

    On Mon 02 Aug 2010 12:26:03p, Janet told us...

    >
    >
    > "Janet Wilder" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:4c570880$0$17888$[email protected]
    >
    > <<I would strongly suggest you find a diabetes education class.
    > Find one that teaches carb counting. If anything it will help you
    > better understanding of the disease and how your body works.
    >
    > BTW, though there is good advice here, but there is also highly
    > individualized advice, which includes web sites that support the
    > poster's personal methods of treating their own disease. This may
    > work just fine for the poster, but may not be what you need for
    > Wayne (and partner?) I'm just giving you a heads up.>>
    >
    > Wayne, speaking as a newly-diagnosed T2, I think that you will
    > find that there is a basic divide between people with diabetes who
    > decided that they are going to take matters into their own hands
    > and work to control their diabetes with diet and exercise and
    > medication if need be, and diabetes "educators" of various types
    > who, although well-intentioned, a) genuinely believe that the food
    > pyramid is healthy for everyone, and b) do not believe that anyone
    > will actually abide by a low carb eating style, and c) accept
    > that a long slow slide into diabetic complications is inevitable.
    > All with the best of intentions, mind you.


    Thanks, Janet. Actually I'm pretty well controlled, but David has
    been on the slippery slope for years now and it's not getting better.
    As I just responded to Janet Wilder, David did start counting carbs
    today and monitoring his BG. He had a good day. If he can only
    stick with it I think things will improve for him.


    > I would suggest reading Gretchen Becker's book "Type 2 Diabetes:
    > The First Year." Check out David Mendosa's web site. Look around.
    > You will find nutcases and people with personal grudges who spend
    > most of their time complaining about mysterious cliques and people
    > riding hobbyhorses, but you will find rational, empowered people
    > too.


    Thanks for the book reference. Although neither of us are in our
    first year, it would still be good reading, especially for David.

    --

    ~~ If there's a nit to pick, some nitwit will pick it. ~~

    ~~ A mind is a terrible thing to lose. ~~

    ************************************************** ********

    Wayne Boatwright


  15. #15
    Ozgirl Guest

    Default Re: How many Carohydrates?

    What medication does David take? Who does the cooking? If its you, is he
    open to eating what you put in front of him?

    "Wayne Boatwright" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected] 5.247...
    > On Mon 02 Aug 2010 11:05:40a, Janet Wilder told us...
    >
    >> Wayne Boatwright wrote:
    >>> What is the recommended limit of carbohydrates per meal and/or
    >>> per day for a Type II diabetic?
    >>>
    >>> TIA
    >>>

    >>
    >> You got some good answers, Wayne. Knowing a little about how you
    >> generally eat from your rfc postings, try cutting down to between
    >> 30 and 45 grams per meal. That will be a lot less than you are
    >> eating now.

    >
    > Thanks, Janet. Actually, I wasn't totally clear about my question,
    > as it relates more to my partner, David's diabetic management than to
    > mine. My A1C averages 5.7 and my BG meter readings are generally
    > within normal range. OTOH, David's is not. He is very inflexible
    > and resistant to change, and I'm trying to convince him that he make
    > a strong effort to control his eating.
    >
    >> I would strongly suggest you find a diabetes education class. Find
    >> one that teaches carb counting. If anything it will help you
    >> better understanding of the disease and how your body works.

    >
    > Over the past 5-6 years we have been through two such classes. I
    > learned a lot. David seems to have retained nothing.
    >
    > As of last night I finally got him to agree to count the carbs in the
    > foods he eats and gave him some numbers to stay within as staring
    > point, as well as taking meter readings at appropriate times.
    >
    > The problem is his limited diet. He will only eat peas, carrots,
    > corn, and potatoes, as far as vegetables are concerned. Fruits are
    > even worse, consisting only of applesauce or canned peaches. His
    > snacks are mostly high-carb, and of course there are the desserts.
    > Meats are not an issue.
    >
    > Having said that, he had a very good day today. He was careful and
    > took readings an hour before meals, and an hour and two hours after
    > meals. All readings were good. I just don'tknow how long this will
    > last.
    >
    >> BTW, though there is good advice here, but there is also highly
    >> individualized advice, which includes web sites that support the
    >> poster's personal methods of treating their own disease. This may
    >> work just fine for the poster, but may not be what you need for
    >> Wayne (and partner?) I'm just giving you a heads up.

    >
    > Fortunately, I do all the cooking and have some level of control as
    > long as he doesn't cheat with snacks I don't know about.
    >
    > --
    >
    > ~~ If there's a nit to pick, some nitwit will pick it. ~~
    >
    > ~~ A mind is a terrible thing to lose. ~~
    >
    > ************************************************** ********
    >
    > Wayne Boatwright
    >


  16. #16
    Wayne Boatwright Guest

    Default Re: How many Carohydrates?

    On Mon 02 Aug 2010 09:53:53p, Ozgirl told us...

    > What medication does David take? Who does the cooking? If its you,
    > is he open to eating what you put in front of him?


    He takes 10MG of glyburide and 1000MG metformin twice a day, as well
    as 37 units of insulin in the evening.

    No, he is not open to whatever I might want to cook. The list of
    foods he is willing to eat is very limited and, unfortunately, on the
    high carb side. As far as meat, he will eat chicken breast, beef,
    and pork chops, although that's not much of an issue. His limited
    vegetable list consists of peas, carrots, corn, and potatotes. As
    far as fruits, he will only eat applesauce (without added sugar), and
    canned peaches in fruit juice only. He's a disaster waiting to
    happen.

    He craves bread, pretzels, and desserts.

    We had a long talk about this last night, as I was receiving feedback
    to my original post. He agreed to count carbs today and was very
    successful, despite his dietary limitations. His BG readings before
    and after meals were right on target. If he could only stick to it.
    Alas!
    --

    ~~ If there's a nit to pick, some nitwit will pick it. ~~

    ~~ A mind is a terrible thing to lose. ~~

    ************************************************** ********

    Wayne Boatwright


  17. #17
    Tiger Lily Guest

    Default Re: How many Carohydrates?

    Wayne Boatwright wrote:
    > What is the recommended limit of carbohydrates per meal and/or per day
    > for a Type II diabetic?
    >
    > TIA
    >

    let your meter be your guide

    learn from the numbers it gives you

    look for 'trends' and not 'one off' bg readings

    having said that, i'm sorry to say i'm at the stage of life where my
    carb allowance is lower or i'll gain weight

    kate
    type 1 Aug/89, complication free, no longer double diabetes

  18. #18
    Ozgirl Guest

    Default Re: How many Carohydrates?

    Well let's hope he can stick to it. Its the old you can lead a horse to
    water but... good luck Wayne.

    "Wayne Boatwright" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected] 5.247...
    > On Mon 02 Aug 2010 09:53:53p, Ozgirl told us...
    >
    >> What medication does David take? Who does the cooking? If its you,
    >> is he open to eating what you put in front of him?

    >
    > He takes 10MG of glyburide and 1000MG metformin twice a day, as well
    > as 37 units of insulin in the evening.
    >
    > No, he is not open to whatever I might want to cook. The list of
    > foods he is willing to eat is very limited and, unfortunately, on the
    > high carb side. As far as meat, he will eat chicken breast, beef,
    > and pork chops, although that's not much of an issue. His limited
    > vegetable list consists of peas, carrots, corn, and potatotes. As
    > far as fruits, he will only eat applesauce (without added sugar), and
    > canned peaches in fruit juice only. He's a disaster waiting to
    > happen.
    >
    > He craves bread, pretzels, and desserts.
    >
    > We had a long talk about this last night, as I was receiving feedback
    > to my original post. He agreed to count carbs today and was very
    > successful, despite his dietary limitations. His BG readings before
    > and after meals were right on target. If he could only stick to it.
    > Alas!
    > --
    >
    > ~~ If there's a nit to pick, some nitwit will pick it. ~~
    >
    > ~~ A mind is a terrible thing to lose. ~~
    >
    > ************************************************** ********
    >
    > Wayne Boatwright
    >


  19. #19
    Alan S Guest

    Default Re: How many Carbohydrates?

    On Mon, 2 Aug 2010 20:47:26 -0400, Orlando Enrique Fiol
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >Alan S <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>Orlando, do us all a favour please.
    >>Just a polite request for a courtesy.
    >>If you want to enter the hurly-burly of the diabetes diet wars, it
    >>would be greatly appreciated if you would join us over on a.s.d to
    >>engage in battle. You will find allies and opponents and many between
    >>the opposing camps over there.

    >
    >I have already set up an encampment there and am ready to rumble.
    >
    >>There has been a tacit agreement over the years that we keep the diet
    >>wars off this group. Of course, that is unenforceable and occasionally
    >>the battles spill over from other groups to here. There will always be
    >>occasional comments or surprise at the suitability or otherwise of
    >>some recipes and foods for diabetics, but on the whole avoidance of
    >>the diet wars has been a policy that the majority have respected for
    >>quite a while.

    >
    >I am happy to respect this policy and have not come down on either side.
    >Rather, I've advocated individual choice rather than an exclusionist definition
    >of which type of diabetic is worthy of posting here.
    >
    >Orlando


    Thank you.

    Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
    d & e; metformin 1500mg
    --
    Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.
    http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com (I'm Type 2! What Should I Eat?)
    http://loraltravel.blogspot.com (Buenos Aires, Argentina)

  20. #20
    Wayne Boatwright Guest

    Default Re: How many Carohydrates?

    On Mon 02 Aug 2010 10:27:36p, Ozgirl told us...

    > Well let's hope he can stick to it. Its the old you can lead a
    > horse to water but... good luck Wayne.
    >


    Thanks for the good wishes!

    > "Wayne Boatwright" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected] 5.247...
    >> On Mon 02 Aug 2010 09:53:53p, Ozgirl told us...
    >>
    >>> What medication does David take? Who does the cooking? If its
    >>> you, is he open to eating what you put in front of him?

    >>
    >> He takes 10MG of glyburide and 1000MG metformin twice a day, as
    >> well as 37 units of insulin in the evening.
    >>
    >> No, he is not open to whatever I might want to cook. The list of
    >> foods he is willing to eat is very limited and, unfortunately, on
    >> the high carb side. As far as meat, he will eat chicken breast,
    >> beef, and pork chops, although that's not much of an issue. His
    >> limited vegetable list consists of peas, carrots, corn, and
    >> potatotes. As far as fruits, he will only eat applesauce
    >> (without added sugar), and canned peaches in fruit juice only.
    >> He's a disaster waiting to happen.
    >>
    >> He craves bread, pretzels, and desserts.
    >>
    >> We had a long talk about this last night, as I was receiving
    >> feedback to my original post. He agreed to count carbs today and
    >> was very successful, despite his dietary limitations. His BG
    >> readings before and after meals were right on target. If he
    >> could only stick to it. Alas!
    >> --
    >>
    >> ~~ If there's a nit to pick, some nitwit will pick it. ~~
    >>
    >> ~~ A mind is a terrible thing to lose. ~~
    >>
    >> ************************************************** ********
    >>
    >> Wayne Boatwright
    >>

    >




    --

    ~~ If there's a nit to pick, some nitwit will pick it. ~~

    ~~ A mind is a terrible thing to lose. ~~

    ************************************************** ********

    Wayne Boatwright


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